Feedback/Modification Mix - Some suggestions.
#1
I've been playing 7e and I love it. Very relaxing game to play for hours.

1. My first problem is obvious: It crashes! The game is stable at the beginning, but if I play for long enough (hour or two), sure enough, it will crash. That is obviously a big problem.

2. Second problem is digging and filling: Its fun and easy to dig a hole to get minerals, but its a pain in the ass to try to fill in that hole with walls again. Because the imps do not plan for their escape, if you just drag a whole level to fill in with walls, imps will stupidly build themselves into holes, and then kill themselves when they are caved in by walls.

There should be a way to mark areas you want to fill in with walls, instead of having to do a very time-consuming method, to make sure the imps do it in the right order and don't get themselves killed.

3. Related to this problem, if the imps do build themselves in, they shouldn't die, they should respawn back at base from the mother.

4. Mining: The tooltip for mining is not informative enough, I had no idea if this was the preferred method of getting resources or not. The first time I built a mine, I was like "Is that it? I can't tell if anything is happening", there is no visual indicators or information to let you know what the mine is doing or how long it will be to "extract" anything, its confusing. Why not have a progress bar showing the next time it will dispense a resource.

5. Prisons: They are useless, after you feed the monster type to the mother, there is no reason to have the prisoners any more.

6. Linking: You don't explain in the game what this is, or what purpose it is for. I eventually figured out, but an extended tool-tip could of helped me a lot.

7. No way to restore camera: After a few plays, I didn't want to rotate the camera, because it is next to impossible to center it back to its original angle, so if you do rotate it you have to play the rest of the game with it slightly off. It would be great to be able to restore to a straight angle, or to rotate a fix 90 degrees.

8. Imp's info should say where its working: A few times, I wanted to know which imp belonged to which job, I was thinking "Is that imp delivering items working for the storage room, or for this room?", so I would click the imp and click info, but it didn't say. It would be very easy and handy to have it show which room the imp is currently working for in its information window.

9. Spells don't have a shortcut button: I only want to use the reveal spell, but I have to manually click on it every time to use it. It would be handy to have direct binds for spells (at least the reveal one), or at least having shortcut keys like the other menu items.

10. Stairs: What is the point of them? It would be nice at least if they had some visual appeal, like making it look like an actual staircase, but not only do they have no function, they are ugly and don't look like staircases.
But I really do like the game.

11. Removing water: I would like it if you could be able to fill in water, to remove it. Maybe make it so you can have to build a bridge first, and then you can build a wall on top of the bridge to turn it into land.

12. Mine animation should extend all the way down: When you build a mine, that animation should be extended all the way to the bottom, or at least, just all the way around the resource vein.
[Image: w4qz.png]

13. You should have the blueprints to craft items you already own: Its pretty stupid that you have creatures that are currently using weapons that for some reason you can't craft. So instead, I have to make the creature drop the weapon, get the ability to craft it, and then give it back to the creature. Any weapons your creatures have, you should be able to craft without making it drop it first. The whole dropping process is just time-wasting and silly.

14. Alert box should not block unit count: Its sometimes annoying that I can't see how many units I have, when I'm looking at my alert box. The alert box should not block that.

15. Alert box should be able to remove all alerts: There should be a button at the top of the alert box to scrap all alerts, it shouldn't be necessary to manually click the bin button multiple times.

16. Auto-save: There should be the option to automatically save the game at periodic times, especially since it crashes often enough.

17. Scrolling through units intuitively: When you go into the unit viewer menu (Where you see a line of them close up in 3D), you should be able to use the mouse wheel to scroll through them, you should also be able to use A or D to scroll from left or right.
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#2
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 1. My first problem is obvious: It crashes! The game is stable at the beginning, but if I play for long enough (hour or two), sure enough, it will crash. That is obviously a big problem.
0.7c was the most stable build we had in a while, and Rasmus is very diligent on fixing serious things like crashes. You should make a separate topic about your crash and attach a crash log to it so Tasmus can take a look at it and fix it.

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 2. Second problem is digging and filling: Its fun and easy to dig a hole to get minerals, but its a pain in the ass to try to fill in that hole with walls again. Because the imps do not plan for their escape, if you just drag a whole level to fill in with walls, imps will stupidly build themselves into holes, and then kill themselves when they are caved in by walls.

There should be a way to mark areas you want to fill in with walls, instead of having to do a very time-consuming method, to make sure the imps do it in the right order and don't get themselves killed.

3. Related to this problem, if the imps do build themselves in, they shouldn't die, they should respawn back at base from the mother.
Yes, this can be a little bit annoying, but I found it funny when they build themselves into a hole. They are imps, and not very bright ones may I add. Also, they where following your orders. It's kind of our fault if they get trapped like that Big Grin I'm not a fan of imps respawning at the dark mother though, it's just... illogical. They shouldn't be able to build themselves out of the map, I'll grant you that.

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 4. Mining: The tooltip for mining is not informative enough, I had no idea if this was the preferred method of getting resources or not. The first time I built a mine, I was like "Is that it? I can't tell if anything is happening", there is no visual indicators or information to let you know what the mine is doing or how long it will be to "extract" anything, its confusing. Why not have a progress bar showing the next time it will dispense a resource.
Mines are a fairly recent addition. They used to be very resource-rich, and they got nerfed a little bit too much. I'm sure they'll find a balance in between, but yeah, currently they aren't very useful.

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 5. Prisons: They are useless, after you feed the monster type to the mother, there is no reason to have the prisoners any more.
Yep, very much. There are a lot of cool ideas about how to give them further use, but we'll have to wait for now...

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 6. Linking: You don't explain in the game what this is, or what purpose it is for. I eventually figured out, but an extended tool-tip could of helped me a lot.
This was the latest addition (before trading) and is still under balance, developing. I'm guessing an in-game tutorial will come in the future, once everything is tested out and set in stone.

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 7. No way to restore camera: After a few plays, I didn't want to rotate the camera, because it is next to impossible to center it back to its original angle, so if you do rotate it you have to play the rest of the game with it slightly off. It would be great to be able to restore to a straight angle, or to rotate a fix 90 degrees.
I see how that can be annoying. I don't use the camera much to be honest.

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 8. Imp's info should say where its working: A few times, I wanted to know which imp belonged to which job, I was thinking "Is that imp delivering items working for the storage room, or for this room?", so I would click the imp and click info, but it didn't say. It would be very easy and handy to have it show which room the imp is currently working for in its information window.
That sounds useful. I once suggested ditching the rooms and replacing them directly with professions, so you'd have the chef imp, the bartender imp, etc.

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 10. Stairs: What is the point of them? It would be nice at least if they had some visual appeal, like making it look like an actual staircase, but not only do they have no function, they are ugly and don't look like staircases.
But I really do like the game.
Stairs are mainly eye-candy. I use them to decorate the rooms.

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 13. You should have the blueprints to craft items you already own: Its pretty stupid that you have creatures that are currently using weapons that for some reason you can't craft. So instead, I have to make the creature drop the weapon, get the ability to craft it, and then give it back to the creature. Any weapons your creatures have, you should be able to craft without making it drop it first. The whole dropping process is just time-wasting and silly.
I reported this as a bug. You buy an orc, drop his loot and you suddenly learn how to build it. Rasmus told us that the orcs are meant to be born naked, so this won't be an issue in the future.

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 14. Alert box should not block unit count: Its sometimes annoying that I can't see how many units I have, when I'm looking at my alert box. The alert box should not block that.

15. Alert box should be able to remove all alerts: There should be a button at the top of the alert box to scrap all alerts, it shouldn't be necessary to manually click the bin button multiple times.

16. Auto-save: There should be the option to automatically save the game at periodic times, especially since it crashes often enough.
Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.
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#3
Hi darklordabc, welcome to the forum, and thanks for the valuable input Smile

I decided to just quote Excess as he has already quoted you Tongue For future references, don't be afraid to create a new topics for each question, it makes it easier for us to follow up and discuss single features in detail.

(11-07-2014, 03:21 AM)Excess Wrote:
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 1. My first problem is obvious: It crashes! The game is stable at the beginning, but if I play for long enough (hour or two), sure enough, it will crash. That is obviously a big problem.
0.7c was the most stable build we had in a while, and Rasmus is very diligent on fixing serious things like crashes. You should make a separate topic about your crash and attach a crash log to it so Tasmus can take a look at it and fix it.

I agree with Excess, create a separate topic about this and run the game with the dwelvers debugger running in the background. More info is provided here: http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php?tid=88 I still haven't had the time to really stress test the game unfortunately, but it is on my long to-do list Smile

(11-07-2014, 03:21 AM)Excess Wrote:
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 2. Second problem is digging and filling: Its fun and easy to dig a hole to get minerals, but its a pain in the ass to try to fill in that hole with walls again. Because the imps do not plan for their escape, if you just drag a whole level to fill in with walls, imps will stupidly build themselves into holes, and then kill themselves when they are caved in by walls.

There should be a way to mark areas you want to fill in with walls, instead of having to do a very time-consuming method, to make sure the imps do it in the right order and don't get themselves killed.

3. Related to this problem, if the imps do build themselves in, they shouldn't die, they should respawn back at base from the mother.
Yes, this can be a little bit annoying, but I found it funny when they build themselves into a hole. They are imps, and not very bright ones may I add. Also, they where following your orders. It's kind of our fault if they get trapped like that Big Grin I'm not a fan of imps respawning at the dark mother though, it's just... illogical. They shouldn't be able to build themselves out of the map, I'll grant you that.

We have been talking about making elevators, but you make a interesting point here. I agree with Excess that it is up to the player to make sure that the imps don't get locked in, it is a part of the challenge, maybe I could notify the player a little better when that happens. But when it comes to tedious tasks like digging and refilling over and over again just to get minerals, that is something I don't think anyone likes doing in the long run. I have been thinking about making pockets in the dungeon so that it is possible for cave-ins, meaning that if the imps dig above a pocket the whole section will fall down and make the creatures fall into a hole. Then we could have worms and other creatures living in these pockets that attacks the imps or whatever creature it is that falls down. The bottom line is that I want to add more danger in the mining, the player shouldn't just be able to just dig a hole straight down and refill it without any risk. I know that this don't solve the problem you presented, but it will make the digging more interesting Smile

(11-07-2014, 03:21 AM)Excess Wrote:
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 4. Mining: The tooltip for mining is not informative enough, I had no idea if this was the preferred method of getting resources or not. The first time I built a mine, I was like "Is that it? I can't tell if anything is happening", there is no visual indicators or information to let you know what the mine is doing or how long it will be to "extract" anything, its confusing. Why not have a progress bar showing the next time it will dispense a resource.
Mines are a fairly recent addition. They used to be very resource-rich, and they got nerfed a little bit too much. I'm sure they'll find a balance in between, but yeah, currently they aren't very useful.

Truly noted, I have been talking to BurningPet about this, he suggested a "clock" or something like that above the mine showing when it is time to mine again, and how depleted the mine is, so yeah, a progress bar. But I forgot about it.

(11-07-2014, 03:21 AM)Excess Wrote:
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 5. Prisons: They are useless, after you feed the monster type to the mother, there is no reason to have the prisoners any more.
Yep, very much. There are a lot of cool ideas about how to give them further use, but we'll have to wait for now...

The prison will have more features to it in the future, we have been talking about torturing, converting, resurrecting imprisoned creatures as undead and much more. But one step at a time Smile

(11-07-2014, 03:21 AM)Excess Wrote:
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 6. Linking: You don't explain in the game what this is, or what purpose it is for. I eventually figured out, but an extended tool-tip could of helped me a lot.
This was the latest addition (before trading) and is still under balance, developing. I'm guessing an in-game tutorial will come in the future, once everything is tested out and set in stone.

I will make this a lot better in the future, when the linking system first was in place it was a catastrophe because the player got no feedback at all, just some rooms that lit up. So with each update I will make this a little more clear. Hmm... Something I have been thinking about with the tooltips is that the text just isn't enough, there could maybe be a in game manual for it. So if the player wants more information about a specific tool he could get this information in full-screen with screenshots and all. Like when a new feature is presented on the forum Smile

(11-07-2014, 03:21 AM)Excess Wrote:
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 7. No way to restore camera: After a few plays, I didn't want to rotate the camera, because it is next to impossible to center it back to its original angle, so if you do rotate it you have to play the rest of the game with it slightly off. It would be great to be able to restore to a straight angle, or to rotate a fix 90 degrees.
I see how that can be annoying. I don't use the camera much to be honest.

I haven't thought about that. I could add an option in the menu that locks the camera to 5 degrees at a time when it is rotated, this will make it a lot easier for the player to get a more perfect angle.

(11-07-2014, 03:21 AM)Excess Wrote:
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 8. Imp's info should say where its working: A few times, I wanted to know which imp belonged to which job, I was thinking "Is that imp delivering items working for the storage room, or for this room?", so I would click the imp and click info, but it didn't say. It would be very easy and handy to have it show which room the imp is currently working for in its information window.
That sounds useful. I once suggested ditching the rooms and replacing them directly with professions, so you'd have the chef imp, the bartender imp, etc.

Hmm, we had a discussion a time ago that could solve this issue: http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php?tid=738
So depending on what room the imp work in he will have different clothes. I could also make it so that when a imp is selected a line or chain could be drawn from him to the room he works in, and yeah, adding a text like "Working in the Bar room" in the info window would also be easy to do. But I must say that I really hate adding text, I prefer visual representations a lot more, with icons, lines or things that are flashing, it is much easier for the player connect the dots when it is presented visually than by text.

(11-07-2014, 03:21 AM)Excess Wrote:
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 10. Stairs: What is the point of them? It would be nice at least if they had some visual appeal, like making it look like an actual staircase, but not only do they have no function, they are ugly and don't look like staircases.
But I really do like the game.
Stairs are mainly eye-candy. I use them to decorate the rooms.

They are eyecandy, before we released the dig downwards system it wasn't possible for the creatures to jump one block up or down, instead we had the stairs that worked like elevators. But we/I soon realized (thanks to a lot nagging from BurningPet Tongue) that it was waaay to tedious building stairs everywhere, so when we implemented that the creatures was able to jump up and down the stairs only became eyecandy. I didn't want to remove them because it is possible that they will come to other uses in the future.

(11-07-2014, 03:21 AM)Excess Wrote:
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 13. You should have the blueprints to craft items you already own: Its pretty stupid that you have creatures that are currently using weapons that for some reason you can't craft. So instead, I have to make the creature drop the weapon, get the ability to craft it, and then give it back to the creature. Any weapons your creatures have, you should be able to craft without making it drop it first. The whole dropping process is just time-wasting and silly.
I reported this as a bug. You buy an orc, drop his loot and you suddenly learn how to build it. Rasmus told us that the orcs are meant to be born naked, so this won't be an issue in the future.

Excess is right. This is something that will be fixed later. The equipment system is way to complicated to handle at the moment, so I decided that instead of forcing the player into understanding it right from start I made it so that the creatures are born with some random equipments. In the future this will not be a problem.

(11-07-2014, 03:21 AM)Excess Wrote:
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 14. Alert box should not block unit count: Its sometimes annoying that I can't see how many units I have, when I'm looking at my alert box. The alert box should not block that.

15. Alert box should be able to remove all alerts: There should be a button at the top of the alert box to scrap all alerts, it shouldn't be necessary to manually click the bin button multiple times.

16. Auto-save: There should be the option to automatically save the game at periodic times, especially since it crashes often enough.
Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.

Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.
The alert box is annoying, I know, and autosaves is a must.
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#4
(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 9. Spells don't have a shortcut button: I only want to use the reveal spell, but I have to manually click on it every time to use it. It would be handy to have direct binds for spells (at least the reveal one), or at least having shortcut keys like the other menu items.

I will solve it right away, it is supposed to have shortcuts.

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 11. Removing water: I would like it if you could be able to fill in water, to remove it. Maybe make it so you can have to build a bridge first, and then you can build a wall on top of the bridge to turn it into land.

I think that is a really good and fun idea Smile
Don't know if I will be able to implement it with the next version, but it is definitely something I will put on my mind.

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 12. Mine animation should extend all the way down: When you build a mine, that animation should be extended all the way to the bottom, or at least, just all the way around the resource vein.
[Image: w4qz.png]

The problem goes deeper than that. Right now the game only allows structures to be built on the top level, so having individual mines on different levels will be a problem. I understand that you suggested that if a mine is built on the top level then all the minerals below it can be mined as well... Hmm, let me think about it Smile

(11-07-2014, 02:34 AM)darklordabc Wrote: 17. Scrolling through units intuitively: When you go into the unit viewer menu (Where you see a line of them close up in 3D), you should be able to use the mouse wheel to scroll through them, you should also be able to use A or D to scroll from left or right.

Truly noted! I will add this option to the next version!
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#5
Thx for the quick responses, its a good sign of the future of the project that developers respond so fast.
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#6
(12-07-2014, 12:20 AM)darklordabc Wrote: Thx for the quick responses, its a good sign of the future of the project that developers respond so fast.

Welcome to our dungeon darklordabc. Smile
I wish even if we will be much better known to public we could answer as fast as possible, but that's only matter of well organized time and task delegating.
I like the way of presenting your feedback, it's detailed, critique, that's better then 100 of kind words because it improve the progress. Wink

Also if you find more things that shouldn't happen in meaning that unable you to do something (like order imps to do tasks, but they somehow stuck in - so that's aberration and definitely mistake in programming) be sure to report that case on Bugs/Issues & Crashes forum, solving bugs is one of the top priority as we want to release each version on Steam free of issues, so we need player's help to find any and resolve. Smile
Spec: Win 10, ATI 7800 HD, res: 1280x1024x75. I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy
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#7
darklordabc Wrote:No way to restore camera: After a few plays, I didn't want to rotate the camera, because it is next to impossible to center it back to its original angle, so if you do rotate it you have to play the rest of the game with it slightly off. It would be great to be able to restore to a straight angle, or to rotate a fix 90 degrees.

Fixed! I will look over the other suggestions as well...
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