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Poll: How should in Dwelvers look diversification of jobs?
Imps do everything, Creatures are only for military use.
Imps are only suppliers, Creatures are only manufacturers and fighters.
Creatures and Imps can do the same jobs - not all of course, but some could do this, some that (so we don't have division for Imps and Creatures, all are the one workgroup).
Imps are doing the most of jobs, but some Creatures could help them with some jobs too
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Brainstorm Choose which creatures should do what in Dwelvers?
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Davgoblin Offline
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Post: #16
RE:
That's sort of what I was thinking, Rasmus. I see Imps as your primary gophers, and secondary everything else. They fill the rolls of your dungeon where need be, but aren't particularly good at anything save for menial labor. But hey, if you don't have any piggehs.. they can cook. And if your don't have any smiths, they can smith.. and if you don't have any tinkerers, they can tinker. That sort of thing.

Here's an example, I was playing around with the idea of Kobolds, or Gnobolds, being the primary tinkerers. Using the ratman like 2nd ed kobold as a base design, and adding gnoll laughing hyena qualities to them. They would be needed to make advanced traps and gagetry, and would be much faster at making more basic stuff than an imp. But an imp could still make basic traps. And Gnobolds, being the sort to explode out into hysterical laughter, would need to be entertained constantly to keep them working. So, if they get upset, imps could still be there to fill the void in production.

Now, what about this? Gnobolds can also construct Golems, but like imps constructing traps, they are not anywhere near as good at it as the primary creature designed to do so, that being the Arkisans. Now they can manage it, but it will won't be without some negative cost, weather it be higher reference time, higher research time, more resources needed, and likely produce an inferior product than the Arkisans, who are masters in that field. I imagine this is where an imps usefulness would stop. As they are labors, not thinkers or scholars. Whoever, Nerolites, or whatever mage class is implemented, might be able to construct golems as well, but they would be worse at it than even the Gnobolds.

Now any unique animations connected to golem construction is limited to 3 creatures. Perhaps just 2 might be better, but it's food for thought. But yes, while I like the idea of having creatures be diverse, and allow for multiple uses, it's also important to bear in mind the increase in work load each new creature would bring to the table.

I really should just finish my showcase x.x But it's so much easier just to pitch ideas on the fly like this.
(This post was last modified: 28-01-2015 02:32 AM by Davgoblin.)
28-01-2015 02:18 AM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #17
RE:
Yeah, I was thinking something similar KhaosFrog, right now the Piggeh controls the cookery room and the imps can't work there at all. The problem is that the Imp are way faster than the Piggeh at doing cooking (walking and animation wise), otherwise it would look weird. So the idea may be that the imps may fail at what they are doing now and then (like burning the bread and make it uneatable), while the Piggeh may have a 100% success every time. Then it is up to the player if he want to let Imps into the cookery room or not.
28-01-2015 10:23 PM
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Mello Tonin Offline
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Post: #18
RE:
The only problem I see with this is what happens in job assignments. I've watched Piggehs start to go pick up resources I've mined only to get turned back around because they were too slow and the resource was picked up by someone else. What will prevent this from happening in the kitchen?
28-01-2015 10:29 PM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #19
RE:
Hmm, the piggeh shouldn't pick up resources outside the kitchen, they should only pick up armors and weapons if they are equipping it. Also, if they are going to pick up an resource they reserve this pickup for themselves and the imps shouldn't touch it.

If you see this happening you can confirm that this really is the case through the creature menu and this specific creature task history, there you should see the 20 last tasks that was assigned to this creature. If an imp picks up a resource instead of the piggeh their pickup task should be canceled and get a red cross over it. If this is the case then we are looking at a bug.
28-01-2015 10:36 PM
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Mello Tonin Offline
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Post: #20
RE:
I see, I'll keep an eye out for that after the next release. Kinda disappointed every time I want to play around with the design and water I haven't been into it as much as usual lately.
28-01-2015 10:41 PM
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Sebt Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Choose which creatures should do what in Dwelvers?
(28-01-2015 10:23 PM)Rasmus Wrote:  (...) So the idea may be that the imps may fail at what they are doing now and then (like burning the bread and make it uneatable), while the Piggeh may have a 100% success every time. Then it is up to the player if he want to let Imps into the cookery room or not.

That sounds fair! Moreover if I think about multiplayer - where each game should be fast-paced and where there's no time for making many complicated choices it can help much. What will be made for single player game for multiplayer will be too.

Here so Imps could work on everything creatures can do, but with different efficiency and results. Imps are super fast and interdisciplinary creatures and like some people says - what's universal it can't be good. Dodgy

I wonder if here we could allow some creatures to do other works too with different efficiency and results (maybe even funny some). In DK 1 it was priceless when I couldn't have Trolls and Bile Demons to work in Workshop, but I had Skeletons and Dark Mistresses which could work in Workshop, so it did the job.

We can make so that not only specific skill in making something depends on how well your items will be done, but also other factors like speed or maybe stronger hands, etc. could also affect production - will you choose fast, but not so skilled creature or slow, but very efficient in work? In one kind of situation first option may be better, in other second. That's what I call strategic plan of production.
I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy - The feasible plan to get rid of scarcity, poverty, and other incoming global issues.
(This post was last modified: 30-01-2015 09:38 PM by Sebt.)
30-01-2015 09:37 PM
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Davgoblin Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Choose which creatures should do what in Dwelvers?
My food quality idea was a counter measure to what you're describing, Ramus. It's kind of a sort of 'dark matter' thing at the moment. Not sure how it works, but know that in order for piggehs and other creatures to be better at cooking than imps, it needs to be implemented. Last I was brain storming on it, it was that piggehs could make more complicated dishes that Imps simply could not, or that food prepared by Piggehs would yield more fullness. So, a creature that needs 3 loafs of imp made bread to be full, might only require 1 made by a piggeh, for example. The pastry itself could even reflect the quality of it's state, having models that look much nicer looking and more well prepared when made by a piggeh.

But having a chance for failure could also fill that niche rather well.



I also thought of a manner to address there speed with something I didn't quite flesh out in the showcase yet, called a 'Transfer table', which is inspired by 'the transfer case' in a real kitchen. In short, instead of the cooking creature making the food and walking all the way back to the flag, they walk to the nearest transfer table and drop the item off before going back to work. Then, each cookery has one imp worker in it who does nothing but fetch food from the tables and moves them to the flag point, where a fetching imp not aligned to the kitchen could pick it up and move it to it's next destination. There could also be a counterpart for the imp to drop ingredients off for the cooking creature to fetch and use. Or these could be combined into one station.

This would make kitchen design feel just slightly more complex, and more personal to the player.

I mentioned a few others in the showcase, so, here's the quote:

Quote:Food Quality
This is a looser mechanic I don't wish to hammer down yet, as it could be altered to suit other mechanics a fitted into the game. For Example, if every creature is a allowed to cook, as suggested by the current pole of Choose which creatures should do what in Dwelvers?, Piggehs could simply be the best at it, thus the meals they prepare have a higher 'Food Quality', and thus, yield far more rewards when it comes to hunger; or perhaps sate the same amount of hunger, but give bonuses to creature loyalty, mood, or alike. It could also be handled by allowing creatures to make more advanced dishes, and perhaps Piggehs simply have the ability to cook food faster even though they are rather slow moving (Something that could be made up for with the [link]Transfer Table[/link]) And higher food quality could be made with more ingredients. Food quality, as it is now, is a sort of 'unknown variable', one that should be considered, even if it is a mechanic that could be handled in several different ways.
01-02-2015 12:40 AM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #23
RE:
We could make sort bread in different qualities. Like Bread, and high quality Bread which is made by the piggeh.
07-02-2015 06:52 AM
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Sebt Offline
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Post: #24
RE:
Yeah, burned bread could even decrease happiness or something else could even poison the eater... or burn or paralyze. Big Grin
I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy - The feasible plan to get rid of scarcity, poverty, and other incoming global issues.
07-02-2015 12:21 PM
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MushyroomMan Offline
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Post: #25
RE:
pokemon Big Grin
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07-02-2015 11:34 PM
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polo5021 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Choose which creatures should do what in Dwelvers?
I'm loving these ideas!
The idea of an imp making a shovel instead of a sword from poor smithing is hilarious!

Lemme summarise what I think should happen:

-Imps can work on all projects but will work less efficiently on tasks that they are too weak or less trained for. For example, an imp working on constructing a large building.
-Orcs are the main brawlers that can take a hit and pack a punch in combat. So would like to brawl each other (if idle) for experience boosts and lead the charge when a fight is occuring (in addition to boosting the combat stats of nearby units).
-Cyclotaur I would see as the big hitting muscular stupid cow creature that could knock down opponents if given enough space, and potentially cause negative effects around areas where imps are working (causing disruption due to them messing around at their feet and the cyclotaur becoming enraged).
Heavy combat unit but has risks if you have too many.
-Rogue I envision as the sneaky stealth unit that take unorthodox paths to assassinate its foes. Abilities like dodging attacks, changing the aggression from itself to another unit, to allow it to cause a sneak attack to do extra damage.
-Piggeh I currently see as a badass cook, it makes an excellent broth, but will chop you into pieces if you interrupt him while doing it. While in combat, he could provide buffs to allied creatures with his promise of ale/broth or disrupt enemy units with it.
24-05-2015 05:16 PM
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simrobert2001 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Choose which creatures should do what in Dwelvers?
(24-05-2015 05:16 PM)polo5021 Wrote:  I'm loving these ideas!
The idea of an imp making a shovel instead of a sword from poor smithing is hilarious!

Lemme summarise what I think should happen:

-Imps can work on all projects but will work less efficiently on tasks that they are too weak or less trained for. For example, an imp working on constructing a large building.
-Orcs are the main brawlers that can take a hit and pack a punch in combat. So would like to brawl each other (if idle) for experience boosts and lead the charge when a fight is occuring (in addition to boosting the combat stats of nearby units).
-Cyclotaur I would see as the big hitting muscular stupid cow creature that could knock down opponents if given enough space, and potentially cause negative effects around areas where imps are working (causing disruption due to them messing around at their feet and the cyclotaur becoming enraged).
Heavy combat unit but has risks if you have too many.
-Rogue I envision as the sneaky stealth unit that take unorthodox paths to assassinate its foes. Abilities like dodging attacks, changing the aggression from itself to another unit, to allow it to cause a sneak attack to do extra damage.
-Piggeh I currently see as a badass cook, it makes an excellent broth, but will chop you into pieces if you interrupt him while doing it. While in combat, he could provide buffs to allied creatures with his promise of ale/broth or disrupt enemy units with it.

I see it like this: Imps can do everything, but have limits to what they can do. A weapon made by a Cyclotaur would be a superior battleaxe, while a weapon made by an orc would be a superior sword. Every creature would have its strength. Imps, while plentiful, would take FAR longer to do certain tasks because of their size and strength. however, they can frequently ruin bread, for example. They can, however, earn bonuses for MULTIPLE imps working on the same building.

The cyclotaur would be more efficient at tasks involving large items, like large battle axes. They would need to be the ones to make the extra large size that cylotaurs need. The orcs are good at massing with other creatures, and get bonuses while fighting with ANY creature.
29-05-2015 09:36 AM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #28
RE:
So I added this:

[Image: SubstituteWorkers.png]

If there are not enough creatures to work in the room and the workers are non-imps there can be imp substitutes that will fill in. The upside with not using substitutes is that the production value is twice, so if a piggeh bakes bread he will bake 2 bread at once instead of one.
30-05-2015 06:26 PM
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Sebt Offline
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Post: #29
RE:
Hmm, it can seem that Rasmus already decided - which units will do what in Dwelvers, but I think for now it's clear that most people want to see Imps working in whole production chain (which make sense if player want to produce something that would require a creature to do that something however he/she won't that creature in his/her army and now it's possible).

Moreover, probably some jobs will require skills that Imps couldn't have (like crafting Golems) so some jobs would require specialist which can be only certain creatures.

I'm curious now Rasmus how will that mechanism balance the game. Some items would require more time and resource invested to make them and I wouldn't be surprise when some items will be made in 32 seconds, some in 89 seconds and then certain creatures instead of being able to make such items only 2 times faster then Imps wipl make them 3,65 or 4,4 faster - just to a little force player to make a choice of gettingcreature to do the job on certain item instead of letting doing it to an Imp.
I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy - The feasible plan to get rid of scarcity, poverty, and other incoming global issues.
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2015 06:37 PM by Sebt.)
31-05-2015 10:29 AM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #30
RE:
Well, this isn't a 100% decision, I saw that this suggestion was the highest voted though. But... This is just something that could work for the moment with the cookery room (which is the only room where there are alternative workers besides the imps). If a piggeh makes the bread then 2 bread will be made. It may be a little bit unbalanced, but I am curious to see what the players think of it when they try it out. In the future we may work with quality instead of quantity.
31-05-2015 11:32 AM
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