Brainstorm Creature Mechanic - Replacing Leveling System with Research & Development System
#1
Getting rid of Leveling System and replacing it with Research & Development System - is it possible and why?.


Problem with Leveling System

As in thread name I would like to get rid of Leveling System (you got something only after gaining next level, not during making that will rise your level up), why?
Ask yourself:
- when you're learning something are you getting to know what is wrote/showed/told after for example reading a whole book or you're gaining knowledge from book DURING reading this book?
- can you find anyone with the same level as you (if you can say he/she is on the same level...)? How would you know it?
- is this possible that in the world, there's someone who know exactly what you know and solves problems in exactly the same way (a perfect clone)?

If you answered "during reading the book", for second "no" and for 3rd question "no" or "no... I think no one cloned me... I think so...", etc that means you are not leaving in Leveling System, but another I described as Research & Development System - according to its definition.


Research & Development System instead of Leveling System in Dwelvers!

So what I propose is instead of gaining new skills, abilities, EVEN STATS like attack, defense, etc. only AFTER your creature level up... gaining them DURING learning from different things and polishing them via training.
IMO it's just stupid - how could Imp learn new skills, have better defence and attack - so be stronger - if his whole life was about jumping from tile to tile?! Ridiculous. It's maybe easy, but R&DS is not harder much more then LS. Let's get to it:

Getting new skills and polishing them:

1. Training Room BUILDINGS - Training Room is for training stats only (and creatures automatically unlocks new skills/abilities by the time when they reach certain number of specific stat), but same dummies can be several and for different purposes - in case of training stats could be divided into Attack, Defense, Speed, Accuracy, etc. Dummies.
You can choose to train all stats, but as more stats creature will have to train as it will take longer to increase them, because creature has to finish each lesson (one lesson is a cycle that combines every training programs in one, even that for unlocking abilities and polishing them later).

2. Skilling skills/abilities - in Dwelvers there could be a special places that unlocks skills creature could not obtain in ordinary stats training. For example:
- In laboratory creatures could learn and train new skills relating to poison enemies or burning them with fireballs or other things you normally couldn't do in Training Roomm.
I have to add also that each creature to get higher attack and higher - needs to spent more time training a stat, so this is a form of limitation that wouldn't allow creature to increase I.e. attack to the infinity. Of course some factors could speed up their training - like Rasmus proposed to throw creatures in order to increase their productivity speed.
- Reading book/script/blueprint (even forgotten, found in old dungeons, etc. so you could get something totally new normally you couldn't), etc. gives its reader (creature) a knowledge how to do something.
Example: Orc being in Foundry don't know what to do, however player ordered some Dynamite Traps - because player can't order them without having their blueprints Orc knows that these must be somewhere in Foundry - so he is going to place where can find blueprints, read them and after some time he learn how to do them and then he is going to work on Dynamite Traps.
As more traps Orc made as his blacksmithing skill raise up and he can do things faster and probably more efficient (we could make that traps made by experienced Orc are more durable, have additional ammo or shoots faster, etc.).
Of course some skills won't require creatures to learn first, some could come with them when born/came like fishing or something, but of course these could be trained during doing them too.

Additionally and optionally:
4. Creature learns skills faster if there are creatures who ready knows the same creature is trying to unlock - training with experienced creature boosts speed of getting the same skill.

5. There's a chance that creatures wil learn new skills from others, but couldn't learn it in any room, but in battle (if could learn it - like every human martial arts, but none of them can learn fly). It's working like Eagle Eye hero secondary ability that gives a chance that hero during the battle will learn a new spell.

- OK, but Sebt! Everything would need to be micromanaged? Will we have to choose manually what stats should be trained?
- Don't worry, we won't have to - I came up to this solution:



Training skills and stats depends on equipment creature wears

Let's connect training stats with equipment - so if you give to creature an equipment that is made mainly for attack purposes (for example weapons are dealing higher damage and armor is lighter - so gives less defense, but do not decrease creature speed like could do more defensive equipments) this equipment will tell creature what skills it has to train to maximize usability of that equipment and optimize skills to it.

This way if creature wears Sword of Attack (yea, awful name) the sword tells creature that if it want to use Sword of Attack at it's best, creature need to train stats diversified by for example in that configuration - 20% Accuracy, 10% Defense, 30% Attack Speed and 40% Attack Power (100% of all of stats).
If creture has no weapon every stats will be trained equally - so having only 4 stats each will be trained in 25% of time spent on training - unless creatures will programmed to gain stats with training in other direction like 40%/25%/25%/10% and so on - then we can make that weapons just mix with their program, so for example if creature has get by training 40%/25%/25%/10% of each stat without any equipment that could change stats and will wear a Sword of Attack which says train stats in configuration 20%/10%/30%/40% per cycle these numbers will be summed and divided to number of equipment items that change stat training configuration, so in our case: (60%/35%/55%/50%)/2 = 30%/17,5%/27,5%/25% = 100% of 1 training cycle. This way you can speed up gaining new skills too.

It's challenging to player because has to decide which direction creature should go - more offensive, defensive, maybe should focus more on better evansion or accuracy too? - Everything will depend on equipment creature wears, so if suddenly decide to greatly skilled in attack with attack abilities/skills train for defense... it would be very very hard to make him defensive - unless we make that stats are resetting and change to fit equipment including changing skills - which we could make an item for why not?

As you can see there's NO MORE MICROMANAGEMENT - everything goes automatically. Smile

That's all folks. I really don't see any reason to have Leveling System if creatures can level up doing their job and leveling up means only raising their battle stars, needs and abilities that couldn't appear with job they're doing.

BE SURE TO LEAVE QUESTION IF SOMETHING IS NOT CLEAR. Smile
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#2
Maybe I'm not understanding this well, but this still seems like a leveling system. Granted, it doesn't have the rigid restrictions of most leveling systems where you advance the same skills across a group of similar characters or buildings signified by either numbers or a descriptive title progression like bronze, silver, gold, but that being said I wouldn't mind not having numbered levels for creatures that guarantee a certain skill set.

At the core of this would be the need to change the creature panel entirely. Once you get a really populated dungeon, I don't think anyone wants to scroll through 30 Imps, 15 Orcs, 5 Fishman, and 5 Rouges just to get to the 1 Cyclotaur you want to improve. Also, in the new creature panel, you would need a way to direct the individual to do the research you wanted to improve them with. Being able to find and assign a particular individual quickly to a task that will help them learn the skill you want is definitely gonna require a lot of development to the UI.

The game Cultures I reference here a lot had a mechanism where an individual assigned to a particular job would generate skill points after working long enough at that job. You could then distribute the points to beneficial stats, but in your example that could be gained in the specific task you were doing. So the more an Orc worked as a blacksmith, the quicker he could produce and higher quality items (maybe better stats and durability than the item starts off having when first crafted) and also have access to better blueprints.

The only thing I really didn't care for in your proposal is the different training rooms. I could see this just being a pain to keep up with, and once you get far enough into playing and your creatures are all trained up, you have all these rooms not doing anything. Otherwise, I think this is an interesting way to avoid the typical 'Leveling up my Characters' routine.
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#3
That's why I asked for asking when something is not clear.

(24-07-2014, 04:30 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: Maybe I'm not understanding this well, but this still seems like a leveling system. Granted, it doesn't have the rigid restrictions of most leveling systems where you advance the same skills across a group of similar characters or buildings signified by either numbers or a descriptive title progression like bronze, silver, gold, but that being said I wouldn't mind not having numbered levels for creatures that guarantee a certain skill set.

The difference in the way of raising creature's skills not only when it level up, but continuously with the time it spend on training, so for example by training attack your creature gains for 20 seconds +1 to attack instead of getting some only after you level up your creature. What I haven't described is that each creature to get higher attack and higher, need to spent more time training a stat, so this is a form of limitation that wouldn't allow creature to increase I.e. attack to the infinity.
What's more each new skill would be unlocked with training some stats, so for example until you won't have that number of attack and speed you couldn't unlock a new skill I already have described it in first post now.

(24-07-2014, 04:30 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: At the core of this would be the need to change the creature panel entirely. Once you get a really populated dungeon, I don't think anyone wants to scroll through 30 Imps, 15 Orcs, 5 Fishman, and 5 Rouges just to get to the 1 Cyclotaur you want to improve. Also, in the new creature panel, you would need a way to direct the individual to do the research you wanted to improve them with. Being able to find and assign a particular individual quickly to a task that will help them learn the skill you want is definitely gonna require a lot of development to the UI.

You could set globally which creature, type of creature or group of creatures could train what. How now would you like to assign certain creature any equipment you want? You'll do it the same way. Your panel of seeing every creature in table would really make it easy to set what they should do.

To send any to learn something you need just go to that creatures option and set what to unlock then when you order or creature will order itself to train skills will be unlocked automatically in training room like you set before. Maybe we could find a way to automate these mechanism, but if could be automated how would you see them then?

(24-07-2014, 04:30 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: The game Cultures I reference here a lot had a mechanism where an individual assigned to a particular job would generate skill points after working long enough at that job. You could then distribute the points to beneficial stats, but in your example that could be gained in the specific task you were doing. So the more an Orc worked as a blacksmith, the quicker he could produce and higher quality items (maybe better stats and durability than the item starts off having when first crafted) and also have access to better blueprints.

That's was a proposition that if we would have certain job skills additionally to battle skills we could train them in similar way. In this system there's no need to use skill points to distribute them for skills, but the idea of R&DS have skill points asan "experience points" of a skill, so by polishing skill you get skill points and if you have them enough to get further skills creatures gain them automatically - as you set or as it is set by default. Nothing you need to set manually except to select which skills and stats creature you wish will train/unlock - after setting wanted skills and what stats should creature train - it's full automation in gaining skills and train them.

(24-07-2014, 04:30 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: The only thing I really didn't care for in your proposal is the different training rooms. I could see this just being a pain to keep up with, and once you get far enough into playing and your creatures are all trained up, you have all these rooms not doing anything. Otherwise, I think this is an interesting way to avoid the typical 'Leveling up my Characters' routine.

That's true, every rooms should be still in use, I though here mainly about certain dummies which every creature could use - for specific program each dummy. We would need to discover how many, how often and who could use them.
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#4
(25-07-2014, 12:38 AM)Sebt Wrote: The difference in the way of raising creature's skills not only when it level up, but continuously with the time it spend on training, so for example by training attack your creature gains for 20 seconds +1 to attack instead of getting some only after you level up your creature. What I haven't described is that each creature to get higher attack and higher, need to spent more time training a stat, so this is a form of limitation that wouldn't allow creature to increase I.e. attack to the infinity.
What's more each new skill would be unlocked with training some stats, so for example until you won't have that number of attack and speed you couldn't unlock a new skill I already have described it in first post now.

I fail to see the mayor difference here from an ordinary level up system, I know that training a certain stat would give the creature a certain skill. But for me this would require to much micro management from the player during the training of a creature and it would give the same end result as a level 10 creature with the current system.

(25-07-2014, 12:38 AM)Sebt Wrote: You could set globally which creature, type of creature or group of creatures could train what. How now would you like to assign certain creature any equipment you want? You'll do it the same way. Your panel of seeing every creature in table would really make it easy to set what they should do.

To send any to learn something you need just go to that creatures option and set what to unlock then when you order or creature will order itself to train skills will be unlocked automatically in training room like you set before. Maybe we could find a way to automate these mechanism, but if could be automated how would you see them then?

The problem is that I really don't like the way the creatures are equipped right now, I don't want the player to have to configure individual creatures, it is to much micro management. The current equipment system is more of a place-holder ATM.

I do like the idea, I am a big fan of games that level up certain skills depending on the actions a character is doing instead of just levelling up everything in the same rate. But I can only see a system like that working with a limited number of characters, not 50+ characters as it would bring way to much micro management into the game. The only time I would like to start thinking about what skills would go well with what character is if I have a close bound to that character and a experience of his strength and weaknesses, and that is very hard to obtain in a game like this.
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#5
(31-07-2014, 12:37 AM)Rasmus Wrote: I fail to see the mayor difference here from an ordinary level up system, I know that training a certain stat would give the creature a certain skill. But for me this would require to much micro management from the player during the training of a creature and it would give the same end result as a level 10 creature with the current system.

The difference is hidden in flexibility of trained stats. For example you train the Orc that for each 10 hits gain +1 to attack, but you suddenly decide to train something else, so you can interrupt it's attack training and order him to train defense, but still it would require micromanagement right?
I agree! There would be much to hell micromanagement - especially if player have many creatures, so I invented a way how to make it all without need to micromanage anything and this is:


Training skills and stats depends on equipment creature wears

Let's connect training stats with equipment - so if you give to creature an equipment that is made mainly for attack purposes (for example weapons are dealing higher damage and armor is lighter - so gives less defense, but do not decrease creature speed like could do more defensive equipments) this equipment will tell creature what skills it has to train to maximize usability of that equipment and optimize skills to it.

This way if creature wears Sword of Attack (yea, awful name) the sword tells creature that if it want to use Sword of Attack at it's best, creature need to train stats diversified by for example in that configuration - 20% Accuracy, 10% Defense, 30% Attack Speed and 40% Attack Power (100% of all of stats).
If creture has no weapon every stats will be trained equally - so having only 4 stats each will be trained in 25% of time spent on training - unless creatures will programmed to gain stats with training in other direction like 40%/25%/25%/10% and so on - then we can make that weapons just mix with their program, so for example if creature has get by training 40%/25%/25%/10% of each stat without any equipment that could change stats and will wear a Sword of Attack which says train stats in configuration 20%/10%/30%/40% per cycle these numbers will be summed and divided to number of equipment items that change stat training configuration, so in our case: (60%/35%/55%/50%)/2 = 30%/17,5%/27,5%/25% = 100% of 1 training cycle. This way you can speed up gaining new skills too.

It's challenging to player because has to decide which direction creature should go - more offensive, defensive, maybe should focus more on better evansion or accuracy too? - Everything will depend on equipment creature wears, so if suddenly decide to greatly skilled in attack with attack abilities/skills train for defense... it would be very very hard to make him defensive - unless we make that stats are resetting and change to fit equipment including changing skills - which we could make an item for why not?

As you can see there's NO MORE MICROMANAGEMENT - everything goes automatically. Smile

EDIT: I rebuilt my first post, now everything should be more clear and I updated it with new solution.
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#6
If we are going to eventually assign equipment by creature, then it's gonna be really hard to guarantee the creature you want to have train for a particular task will get the exact piece of equipment you want to cause them to train that stat. Now if we maintain the standard of being able to select an individual to equip an item, then you would still be able to select the gear you wanted to get a creature to train for that stat. This will just bring us back to micromanagement again.

Instead, what about a flex leveling system. What I mean is that given a creature group has a set of equipment, when an individual is assigned to a workplace then they get bound to it. This will change their everyday costume to match the profession to help us tell them apart as they move about. The idea for work related costumes was in the Imp Priorities thread around page 5 where MasterGoose came up with this awesome concept for a farmer outfit for farming Imps:

[Image: Farmer_v2.gif]

So now an Imp who is assigned to a Farm Room will be farming and gaining experience as a farmer. As long as they are assigned there they will continue to improve their ability, but if they are unassigned their farming ability will start to decrease. This will mean too that we will be focusing on developing characters for a specific task without having too much management, and become more invested in making sure that creature stays healthy and keeps progressing.
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#7
(31-07-2014, 05:49 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: If we are going to eventually assign equipment by creature, then it's gonna be really hard to guarantee the creature you want to have train for a particular task will get the exact piece of equipment you want to cause them to train that stat. Now if we maintain the standard of being able to select an individual to equip an item, then you would still be able to select the gear you wanted to get a creature to train for that stat. This will just bring us back to micromanagement again.

Well that's true, but we have to separate training stats/skills system from equipping system. Big Grin
What stats/skills will be trained the most will ONLY depend how equipment assignation system will look like, you added your thought that are about equipping mechanism, but that's something that mechanism of gaining skills/stats is not about.

Every stats training will depend on equipment creature wear ATM - if player will be able to choose equipment then he/she will know what is good for target creature - every equipment item will have in description training configuration values. We don't know however yet, how will equipping system look like, hope we could avoid somehow micromanaging equipment assignation and make process of equipping and stats/skill training fully automated. Smile

TL;DR - There's micromanagement if it comes to equipping yes (if in Dwelvers will that be possible), but NOT if it comes which stats or skills you want to train because creature's and equipment training values configuration determines that so creature will automatically always train these values mainly which wear equipment says. We need to find solution which automate both mechanisms.

What equipment creatures will choose - we have think about first.

(31-07-2014, 05:49 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: Instead, what about a flex leveling system. What I mean is that given a creature group has a set of equipment, when an individual is assigned to a workplace then they get bound to it. This will change their everyday costume to match the profession to help us tell them apart as they move about. The idea for work related costumes was in the Imp Priorities thread around page 5 (...)

So now an Imp who is assigned to a Farm Room will be farming and gaining experience as a farmer. As long as they are assigned there they will continue to improve their ability, but if they are unassigned their farming ability will start to decrease. This will mean too that we will be focusing on developing characters for a specific task without having too much management, and become more invested in making sure that creature stays healthy and keeps progressing.

I divided my idea into battle stats and skills that could be gained in other way - what you say, farming skills are in that skill group and not affect battle stats. By gaining experience as farmer Imp's skilling farming skill that increases farming productivitu. That's nothing instead of and I approve your idea! Cool

It is possible also we could set that Imp's skill of claiming tiles will increase Imp's movement speed or something when is train - claiming tiles is skilling claiming tiles skill which increase Imp's movement speed. Sure. Smile
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#8
Well ya, but the farming Imp is just an example. So to apply this to the Orcs. Say I have an Orc that is working as a Blacksmith. The Orc would have Blacksmith equipment that would automatically be equipped when they started work. While working as a Blacksmith, they would gain skill in Blacksmithing, but say a Rally Flag is dropped. Well then they would swap the Blacksmith equipment for Battle Gear if rallied. Now instead of them gaining skill in Blacksmithing, they are now building Combat Skill. If they stay in combat too long, they would start to lose some of their skill in Blacksmithing over time. Likewise, when the battle is over and the Rally Flag is cancelled, they would return to their assignment, and given enough time they would start to lose skill in combat. This would reflect how focusing a creature to a particular assignment will affect their skill sets and make you more invested in an individual or group of individuals development.
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#9
(31-07-2014, 06:48 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: The Orc would have Blacksmith equipment that would automatically be equipped when they started work. While working as a Blacksmith, they would gain skill in Blacksmithing, but say a Rally Flag is dropped. Well then they would swap the Blacksmith equipment for Battle Gear if rallied. Now instead of them gaining skill in Blacksmithing, they are now building Combat Skill. If they stay in combat too long, they would start to lose some of their skill in Blacksmithing over time. Likewise, when the battle is over and the Rally Flag is cancelled, they would return to their assignment, and given enough time they would start to lose skill in combat. This would reflect how focusing a creature to a particular assignment will affect their skill sets and make you more invested in an individual or group of individuals development.

That's an interesting idea Mello, what's not trained for some time has been forgotten in some part. This would be possible if we abandon leveling system, otherwise it wouldn't work well unless creature would loose levels which IMO make no sense.
+3 for you. Smile

Maybe someone else would like to talk about our ideas here too? Smile
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#10
I'm definitely feeling this idea.

From what I gather, it looks like this idea is all about the equipment system, since creature skill development is based on what equipment that creature is wearing/using at the time. I also get Rasmus' concerns about micromanagement increasing with a system like this. ATM the equipment system is pure micromanagement, but I have some solution ideas for that:

1- Equipment profile is set by percentages, and creature type. So if you have Swords, bows, spears, and axes available as weapons, and you have orcs available as one of your creature types, you could set orc's equipment profile to be: Swords: 40%, Axes: 20%, Spears: 10%, Bows: 30%. (40+20+10+30=100) the maximum all equipment types could total would be 100%. If it's less then that, the leftovers would be automatically set to None as their equipment type. Eg: Swords: 30%, Axes: 20%, Spears: 10%, Bows: 20%, None: 20%. So in this case 80% of your orcs would use some sort of weapon, and 20% would be unarmed, this could be useful if you want some orcs working in jobs other then as a warrior, such as blacksmithing or tailoring.

This would provide one way of automating the creature equipping system. The current system could also be available to override the automatic assignment if you need a specific equipment profile for a specific creature, such as you need and orc to carry a bow but none have automatically picked one up.

Sebt, MT: +2 for each.
2- Creating equipment profiles(EP): So how are these equipment profiles created? Through selecting a creature type, setting the equipment set in the same manner as done now, but rather then just for an individual creature that is immediately equipped with that set of equipment, it is to select what equipment to include in an equipment profile. This equipment profile would have the desired weapon, armor and secondary item (eg a shield, or second weapon) that the user would like a member of the selected creature type to use. Once done with changing the settings the equipment profile would then need to be named and saved.

What about assigning the percentages? Each time a new profile is made it could alter the percentages of the old profiles. That could be a problem, but the solution is, when the new EP is being added, the % of creatures that should use that profile is set while editing the profile, and all existing EPs percents are modified proportionately. Eg: there is 1 EP (EP1) set to 80%, with the remaining 20% set to None. A new EP is added (EP2), and set to 40%. 4/5 of the percent that needs to be cleared up would come from EP1 and the remaining 1/5 would come from None. So EP1 would be reduced by 40 * 4/5 = 32 and None would be reduced by 40 * 1/5 = 8. So the new equipment profile distributions would be: EP1: 48% (80-32), EP2: 40%, None: 12% (20-8). The user could adjust this in the add/edit profiles screen until the desired rates are reached, or even manually adjust the other profiles until the exact mix of percentages is reached. so if the user doesn't like the 48-40-12 mix, he could adjust it to say 50-40-10 or even 60-30-10. Basically the None profile would be a default profile of using no equipment and would be whatever's left after all EPs percentages have been totaled, so in the above example, the None would be 100-48-40=12. The maximum that all user defined profiles could total is 100%, at which point all creatures would be assigned equipment from the selected profiles and no creature would be left unequipped.

What about if all the items needed to equip a creature are not available? If a creature cannot complete an equipment profile due to some equipment being out of stock, the creature would simply equip whatever is currently in stock and be put in a queue to get each missing piece. For example, an orc is assigned the equipment profile of Sword, Plate Armor, Shield. There is a Sword and shield available, but no Plate Armor. The orc would take a sword and shield and be put next in line in the queue to get a Plate Armor as soon as one comes available and that orc is at the front of the queue. This way all equipping is normally done automatically based on user settings, but with the option to override the automation if needed. Any creatures manually assigned equipment would get an equipment profile of "Custom" and would be excluded from EP assignment calculations as to what EP each orc should be assigned to.

How would job specific EPs be handled? Those would be done as they are now, pretty much, when a creature is assigned to a room, it picks up that room's profile and is taken from one of the creatures not assigned any profile (ie are assigned the default profile "None"). These would be the "Free workers" those not assigned to a room, EP or job.

How about exploring, claiming, building and digging/mining? Each of those could be an EP, requiring certain equipment, which could have basic tools that are readily available (simulating that a creature can make a basic pick, shovel or hammer as needed). The Miner EP could be a pick axe, and a shovel. The explorer EP could be a map and compass. The EP for claiming tiles could be surveyor's equipment, such as rope and a tools for taking measurements (period appropriate to the middle ages of course. The equipment for building things would be a hammer, saw and trowel (the armor slot could be filled with a tool belt that these tools are stored in until needed. The hammer and saw would be for building with wood and the trowel for building with stone/brick.

I think this system would complement Sebt's skill gaining idea, which I see is vastly different from the current leveling system. Under the leveling system, a level 10 orc is a level 10 orc is a level 10 orc, all are the same, there is no difference between them. Under Sebt's system, each creature would grow in skills based on what equipment the creature has and what tasks it's doing, which would also be based on what equipment the creature has.
[Image: 11619898803_7d3a89e6bd_n.jpg]
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#11
Thanks for +s SU. Big Grin

Well. It's all about replacing leveling system to continuously updating system, but yes, equipment is orienting the way of gaining stats different then if creature would gain stats without wearing an equipment.
So instead of having creature gain I.e. +2 attack, +2 defense and 50 HP only when it level up creature gain every of stats with each hit (coming back to example here each hit could give I.e. +0.05 attack, 0.05 defense and 0.4 HP), but here how much what stat will get would depend also on equipment creature wear ( that could depend on equipment profile which will increase each creature stats the same way, a little mathematics should be used to balance that stars allocation). So creature without any equipment gets the same stats, but wearing equipment that is encoded as increasing attack skills will give attack stats more, so I.e. +0.07 attack, 0.04 defense (well it has to be some balance here so some stats could grow slower) and 0.4 HP. This way if each creature specie will have it's own skill tree skill that are offensive will be gained faster, but defensive skills will be gained slower for example.

What's more I prefer to not having creature's profiles, because I would like to give player more freedom of choice, so each creature could wear each equipment, but player has to make a choice and test which equipment set is the best for certain creature type. We're not born with knowledge that all humans are good at fighting with axes, but each could master each weapon differently.

There's need to equipping creatures automatically, but I also prefer to have a choice which I should equip with what, if everything could happen automatically how could I know that would be the best? We need to make equipment first and creatures will wear only what we make, sometimes I would like to equip other creature type, but suddenly what I produced has been taken by Orc, because game said that this equipment would fit Orcs the best, it makes no sense for me - equipping creatures will be so linear, we lost freedom of choice and ability to test and form interesting tactics...

.. Hmm in other hand player that know which equipment could wear I.e. Orc to increase it's attack skills will send order to workshop to make this kind of equipment and after making equipment that fits Orcs profile the best each Orc could be automatically equipped with that armor. Also we can decide how much to make, we can decide to make half offensive, half defensive of number of Orcs equipment to wear half of them with offensive and half with defensive equipment... but then when we would like to change that equipment we have to be sure what we make will be assigned to Orcs only? Especially when we have 10 different types of creatures? Automation will fail, better to have equipping system manual.

We should have then option to create whatever number of whatever equipments and ability to equip creatures per species, squads or singular.
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#12
Actually, the automation system I proposed above would give you the benefits of automation and the option of manual control. So if you prefer to micromanage your creature's equipment, just leave them all to "None" in the equipment profiles and manually assign the equipment. If you do want automation and want to test a new equipment configuration on a specific species, like impanzees for example, you'd just have to set that equipment profile for impanzees and assign it a very low percentage, or manually equip one with that experimental profile. If you decide you like it, there could be an option to promote a custom profile to to an automated profile, assign what % of creatures should use it and if you need to, reassign the other profiles to keep them at just the right levels for your strategy.

So this system is meant to be a versatile system that has both the automation and manual, one-off equipment options.
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The Golden One!
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#13
So to break things down and not go to far ahead.

Squads: I will probably make it so that the player can select several creatures and use the ctrl+number to assign them to a certain squad. Now to make things a little bit more graspable I would like the player to just being able to assign weapons and armor to the squad and not to individual creatures in the squad. We have 10 numbers on the keyboard = 10 squads. This should be more than enough variety to create a mixed up fighting force. If we want more micro management then we can take it from there, I just think this is a good start.

Skills: Okay, so if one creatures do a specific job he will become better at it, and if he is using certain weapons he will become better at them as well. That sounds good, it would make the player more interested in individual creatures, I could even use the consol window to show messages when a creature increase in a certain skill. But one think I wouldn't like is if the player would assign certain creatures to certain rooms to train individual creatures skills, this would be too much micro management. It will either be random, or that the creatures will swap jobs so that they all try to keep the same skill level, or that the creatures with the highest skill in a certain job always will be prioritized to take that job. I vote for the last one.

Removing the levels: This is not something I am prepared to do just yet. Once the skills has been implemented we will see, I would prefer to have the levels co-exist with the skills so that the player easily can see how far upgraded a creature is without having to look at individual skills.

NOTE: Please correct me if I have missed something, I did some fast reading through the post and this is the general idea I got out of it.
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#14
(15-08-2014, 11:27 AM)Rasmus Wrote: ...It will either be random, or that the creatures will swap jobs so that they all try to keep the same skill level, or that the creatures with the highest skill in a certain job always will be prioritized to take that job. I vote for the last one.

I vote for the last one too.
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#15
(15-08-2014, 07:55 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote:
(15-08-2014, 11:27 AM)Rasmus Wrote: ...It will either be random, or that the creatures will swap jobs so that they all try to keep the same skill level, or that the creatures with the highest skill in a certain job always will be prioritized to take that job. I vote for the last one.

I vote for the last one too.
The only problem I see with this approach is that you'll get 1 creature really good at something and 79 who really suck at it. If you loose him for any reason you are f... ried.

I would make it random, except you can choose who works where (if you decide to). Also, to shuffle things up a bit, I would encourage interdisciplinary bonuses:

Let's say one imp gets to max level at smithing. He is %100 efficient at making weapons. If he continues to work on smithing, he won't gain new skills because he already maxed out smithing. BUT, if you put him in farming, and start leveling up, not only his farming skills will go up, but his base overall interdisciplinary bonus will too. For each extra skill that you max, each maxed skill gets a %10 bonus on efficiency. So if an imp is good at both farming and smithing, he'll be %110 efficient on each. If hes good at smithing, farming and cooking, he'll be %120 efficient on each. This bonuses could be a curve, so you wouldn't have to max out to get the bonus, you could get 1/4 of the bonus if you are %50 efficient at something for instance, but always getting the best bump the further you go.
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