Brainstorm Creature Mechanic - Creature Production 2.0
#1
I am soon to remove the shards and add so that items will be feed to the dark mother for creatures to be produced (like it was before).

But even so, I do feel some unease with this idea. There are obviously some issues and the production cycle isn't smooth enough. I have been thinking about ideas like in DK that certain rooms generates certain creatures, so the creatures will be automatically created, this do has its charm and it wouldn't hurt the gameplay as much because there will obviously be some delay and having a naked level one orc isn't as good as having an equipped level 4 orc. Just to make things clear, I am not interested in copycatting DK creature production system. Instead I would prefer an alternative version of this maybe. Like making sure that the dark mother is well feed, otherwise she will not auto-produce the creatures.

Hmm, so lets play with this thought. If creatures were auto produced then the player would have to focus on making the creatures stronger and better equipped instead of just producing 100+ orcs, this would probably add some game play quality. In the creature menu we could add some info that the dungeon supports so and so many Orcs, we could also have a feeding meter showing how full the Dark Mother is and how much of this food would be used to create a certain creature. Filling up the Dark Mother on food could be handled automatically by the imps. I am not sure if we should feed the Dark Mother normal food or a specific food type. If we were to make a specific food item for the dark mother this wouldn't interfere with feeding regular creatures. Maybe we don't need food? Maybe something else could good as a mana force of some sort.

What do you think? I still have a couple of days before addressing this issue... When we have come up with some good ideas we could make a poll and vote for the best idea. Just bear in mind that I am not looking for something that require the player to take several steps to produce a creature Smile
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#2
Feed Dark Mother to give her energy and required nutrients allowing her to create minions, hmm, I have some questions. Smile


1. Limiting continuously increasing number of minions

Problem - As much food we can produce as much and faster (in shorter time) we could make creatures, but then... what would limit Dark Mother to produce more because you would make an infinity number of creatures? In DK it was simple - set max creatures capacity in map properties (which is too artificial to me) or have enough gold to maintain creature (having gems makes it however a bad solution), so we would need to have some maintenance mechanism (we have now that instead of giving creatures gold we need to feed and entertain them (fulfil each special needs), but now you can make food abundant very quickly and you may have many surpluses, so food is not enough as training or entertainment does cost nothing now). Well in this game there is some kind of Resource-Based Economy (what you need to maintain everything are available resources), but if resources will always be abundant, what will could do to make player think before he/she produce another creature? Having something still increasing (food or like mana in DK 2) won't solve the problem, so what?

Solution - Dark Mother has limited place in her belly, so she can eat limited amount of food, but she not only would require food to make creatures, but also to maintain her powers to control every minion that serves her.
So... as much creatures you produce as much food you have to deliver her because she continuously consumes more food in the same period of time (for example DM is eating 4 units of food you gave her each next 20 seconds if you have 2 Orcs that she has to maintain - 4 Orcs requires delivering her 8 units of food for each 20 seconds of her consumption and so on (or maybe let required amount of food grows like 1x2x3x4 or 2x2x2x2?)). This way as you want have more as more food you'll need to deliver her in the same time, so you need to have faster or bigger production that requires you more workers... but they cost more to Dark Mother - so as you see the system won't allow you to make infinite number of creatures. Wink

ADDITIONALLY: What if our dungeon is destroyed and we have nothing, but Dark Mother - how we could defend ourselves?
If you have still food in Dark Mother you can create these creatures you obtained before, you were able to make (depending on what will allow player to make creatures - if only Rooms - like in DK you can't call Sorcerers not having Library, so maybe after unlocking once you can make them always until map end?), of course you need to act quickly and decide - make more of them and act quickly or less, but have more time to defend (because DM will consume less food that was stored in her belly having less creatures - so you can live relatively longer).

BTW: If we could physically move Dark Mother from place she is from the start that would be even more challenging for our enemy to find us - like moving main base in Warcraft 3 playing Dark Elves - see -> http://videogameaddicts.net/battlereport/sneakytree.JPG


2. Instead of auto-production - have a choose to manually produce creatures

Problem - In DK there were many creatures player simply won't need like later Flies, Spiders, Orcs, even Dragons because of tiny treasure room and gold reserves, you know sometimes it's better to have same Rooms then creatures that would come building one, resources you have could be scarce to maintain all of them still coming to your dungeon and you have to kill them or take back to portal.
Solution - I prefer to have a choose - which and how many of creatures of a specie I would like to make (especially that not only one creature could operate one Room Building, but more of them?) - also I hope that some creatures could be available to make by throwing them into Dark Mother.
Spec: Win 10, ATI 7800 HD, res: 1280x1024x75. I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy
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#3
Sebt makes some good points, but I would like to cycle back to our discussion on Evil Influence; how it affects many environment variables: Game Music, Threat Levels, Creature Creation, and general look of the World Environment. I think that was some of the better ideas on making Dwelvers gameplay more unique than most similar game types.

The problem would be similar as in Sebt's examples where work force is wiped out and no one could feed the DM to make more creatures. Instead of just feeding the DM for the sake of making creatures, it would be nice to see that aimed for a different purpose.

I think instead it would be much nicer if the DM was essentially a storage point for 'Evil Influence'. These would come from things like claimed tiles, rooms built, or other markers like was discussed. Your Influence level would dictate how many creatures you could produce so that would jive with I have X Influence which can affect controlling Y creatures. The DM would have levels which would be upgraded as Influence levels increase which in turn allows for more creatures to be created. Upgrades would need to come from feeding the DM a set of resources in order to be able to be available, and it would be nice to see that a mage/wizard would be needed to catalyze the upgrade. Upgrading the DM could also be a prerequisite for building/upgrading rooms.

What that would do when we think 'Campaign Mode', is that a limit on buildings and creatures would be much easier to control in order to get the kind of game progression we see in most games in general. In 'Sandbox Mode' you would really be able to build from the ground up and have to strategize about which improvements should be done at which times to keep up with the Goodlies. If we look into 'Multiplayer Mode' if that becomes a possibility, then you could have an initial Influence level to start out with so you could build from the ground up, or start all the way at the top of the Influence limits. That was a feature I really like in StarWars Galactic Battlegrounds where you could set the Tech Level to 1, 2, 3, or 4 when you started a match.
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#4
Let's think outside of the box, shall we?

How about we can't create creatures at all?

The dungeon could be filled with creatures just like the impanzees, only not all of them are aggressive.

You could bump into a room with a couple of wildlimps ready to join your cause, or perhaps a couple of wandering orcs which will only join you if you have a bar filled with beer and a comfy bead (or enough gold).

How would you fight a settlement of impanzees early on, you ask? Well, they mind their own business, they would only defend their turf, not attack yours. They wouldn't venture very far away from their lair, so they won't be a problem until you want them to be a problem (unlike now where every enemy wonders around randomly).

Of course, imps would have to learn not to run into an impanzee lair unnecessarily, but that would only make them more believable.

Rogues, you ask? I never saw them as fighters really. They should sneak into your dungeon, straight into your storage room, steal a piece of gold/beer/iron and run back to the portal to sell it to humans above.

Cyclotaurs aren't much of a threat, even now. If you don't mess with them, they don't mess with you.

But how would you make up for all the dying creatures? You won't have to, as they won't die. You either loose the battle and carry your wounded back to bed to rest and get healed (infirmary room, anyone?) or you conquer the enemy and it joins your side; although pretty wounded at first, so they would have to heal before they fight for you.


This could make for some really interesting multiplayer battles, as conquering new neutral units would effectively leave you weaker against your opponent for a limited time. It would be much more strategic than being the first one to spam a bunch of units.


I haven't though about everything yet, and I know it's a radical change from what we are used to/expect, but at least I hope I inspire some original ideas to tackle this issue, which will hopefully differentiate Dwelvers from other similar games.
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#5
(21-07-2014, 06:42 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: The problem would be similar as in Sebt's examples where work force is wiped out and no one could feed the DM to make more creatures. Instead of just feeding the DM for the sake of making creatures, it would be nice to see that aimed for a different purpose.

I think instead it would be much nicer if the DM was essentially a storage point for 'Evil Influence'. (...)

I'm not sure about upgrading - because every replaces previous, so it's a little waste of time to make worse versions of something if you could have optimally working at once. Unless you think in matter of growing Evil Influence as that upgrade, not that you click upgrade (with I'm sick, because it's everywhere, especially in Mobile games where you have to wait longer for each upgrade you do), so that I understand. Big Grin

I thought about the same system as you, but I came to one problem - what if player lost almost every claims, rooms, almost everything that increases Evil Influence (remember Evil Meter?)? What if player will just dig walls just to have more creatures? If claiming would get very little to EI it would work better, still what if you lost almost every tiles, rooms and will be left with same DM and some creatures? Then we would need to set minum amount of creatures you could make even if you have only DM - as you said about start limit in part of your post about multiplayer. So minimum capacity at the start + more when spreading Evil Influence around.

Maybe this idea could work better - you can make infinite amount of food, but to not make unlimited number of minions you have limit by DM's capacity that could be increased by expand Evil Influence. This way with that limit food would not be necessary.

Still something is missing in our ideas Mello - what will depend of what kind of creatures we could make? Just by building rooms we will unlock new creatures, spreading our influence will unlock them more (which well.. causes hierarchical way of getting them) or something? I think Excess found the answer:


(21-07-2014, 07:40 PM)Excess Wrote: How about we can't create creatures at all?
You could bump into a room with a couple of wildlimps ready to join your cause, or perhaps a couple of wandering orcs which will only join you if you have a bar filled with beer and a comfy bead (or enough gold).

The idea reminds me that where you need to prison your enemy and then throwing them into Dark Mother which gives Essence to make creatures of kind you caught before and I see the same problem - we're limited by kind of creatures living in area of our influence/realm/map we play. You can't make every you want, but those you can find. Also its always possible that opponent will have better position to find creatures which could work in manufacturing place or food production places. How you also be sure creatures you find won't kill you? For this actually you answer:

(21-07-2014, 07:40 PM)Excess Wrote: How would you fight a settlement of impanzees early on, you ask? Well, they mind their own business, they would only defend their turf, not attack yours. They wouldn't venture very far away from their lair, so they won't be a problem until you want them to be a problem (unlike now where every enemy wonders around randomly).

So what if opponent find, but you not? You found the answer for it too, but I would like to expand it for this - we need a system that will ALWAYS make lairs of creatures on every maps we could play on, that we could use, hire them (reminds me a little Heroes 3 and Diplomacy use and Minecraft system where there are always every resources and creatures no matter which configuration you'll set), so every our basic tasks will be able. Of course for basic production like food and manufacture creatures which would be able to handle these jobs could appear closer to players base (in multiplayer too).

OK, this idea seems great, whatever exotic you find the game could be more interesting - knowing that you can't be sure if creatures you find will attack you or not (something has to be made that would show us if these or that creatures are aggressive or not - maybe like in WoW - green means hostile, yellow - neutral and these could be bought or not, red means killing you when come too close), but... even if we find any creatures how could we have more of their kind? Maybe just more of them could be on map, but if not? Maybe sacrificing one in Dark Mother could produce them more (like we talked about Essences which unlocks possibility to make creatures of one kind when we caught one of that kind more than one), but then we need to know what will we need to make them, how many we could make them and what if every die (Excess give the idea of having them wounded/fainted and possible to heal them, but what id anyway our shortseeing will forgot about one or enemy will capture one or more?), we need to search for more or we could produce them, etc...?
Spec: Win 10, ATI 7800 HD, res: 1280x1024x75. I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy
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#6
@Sebt: I like your idea, this would definitely limit the player from creating to many creatures, and the storage rooms from filling up to much. But something I have been thinking about a lot lately is all the items that needs to be transported to the DM, this isn't that much of an issue but I don't want a game where the DM is being forcefed 24/7.

@Mello: I agree with the Sebt here, I am not that fond of having tech levels, it should come naturally that if you have that building then you can produce that item and therefore make that building and so on... But the "Evil Influence" is something that could have its part in this somehow maybe...

@Excess: Very interesting, but something that bugs is that the number of creatures the player has is directly related to how much of the map has been explored. I personally like to build up a strong army and then attack. But here you will need to attack to create a strong army which could be a balance issue, if the player don't have a strong army enough to kill of creatures he will not be able to make his army stronger. And if he has a very strong army already the army would just keep getting stronger and nothing will be a challenge any more.

Okay, so I have another idea also. It is somewhat down the line with the idea I had before (which had its obvious flaws)...

I got a little inspired by the idea of having the piggeh working in the cookery room and the orcs in the bar. So here is my idea:
If the player builds a bar, one orc will be produced (this is only if the player don't have any orcs). This Orc will work in the bar (but that is not important for now), what is important here is to keep the Orc drunk and happy, if he is drunk and happy another orc will be produced. But the only way to create a new orc after this point is to make sure that all orcs owned by the player are happy, if one of them is unhappy no new orc will be produced. This would definitly create some balance in the number of creatures the player can produce and at the same time make the player worry more about unhappy creatures and how to make them happy. So if the player have 10 orcs then it will be much harder to keep all of them happy to be able to create the 11:th orc. This would apply to all creatures.

The happiness I am talking about is not just about being drunk, well fed and well rested. But all creatures creature types will have a lot of different demands. For example:

The Orc requires:
- Well rested, drunk and well feed.
- To be at least level 2 to be happy.
- To get really drunk at least once every 20 minute.
- To start a battle with someone else at least once every 10 minute. If the Orc faces some real enemies there will be a delay on 20 minutes, it doesn't matter if the orc wins or looses, he will still be happy (A lot of creatures will probably be beaten up and dragged to their beds unless the player engages the orcs in battle).
- To be able to be left alone from other races once in a while. (Good to build their beds separately from other races).
- To be able to pray to their God once in a while (Here is where the orc statue come into the picture)

I was thinking about having a status bar in the creature menu which will increase when all the orcs are happy but decrease when one orc is unhappy. The more orcs the player has, the slower the status bar increases, but it will always decrease in the same speed. When the status bar is full another orc will be produced, and after that the status bar goes back to zero again.

If this idea is accepted we could start thinking about what (reasonable) requirements the other creatures will have.
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#7
As we are thinking "out of the box":

Let's look how creatures are produced in the real World...
So how about including genders and set some conditions, like said above. There must be a male and a female of each creature class and each "combination" could produce a "child", if they are happy, feeded, not thirsty and i like the idea of a certain level! These childs need to grow up and are avaiable after a certain time.
On this "production" is a cooldown, so that you can only produce as many new creatures, as you have "parents". And with every new child, the standards of happiness increase.
This plus the possibility to let certain neutral creatures join you, if you have the requirements too make them happy. Or if you defeat them in battle they will join you, after they recover from their wounds.

I know that this might sound a little weird, but i thought "hey, why not".^^
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#8
Hmm, I think we forgot about the most important and first thing we should do to find efficient way of realizing the project, which is simple... setting the aim(s)! Smile

I found that to have balance, efficient and entertainment creature "production" system such system should contain:

1. You can have unlimited number of cretures of a type, but there is limitation system that would not allow to make them too many.
2. Creating creatures requires only one thing to do if we want to create them and not additional resources or actions made by player for being able to make them.
3. It doesn't rely on resources or manufactured products - creatures cannot be made from things we can make unlimited unless - see point 1.


Additionally and optionally?
4. Creatures could be made no matter if your dungeon is conquered, but you still have Dark Mother or anything that could make any and still can do somen creatures.

If you have more thins we should add to needs, go ahead and post them. Smile

So let's see if our ideas fulfill these needs:

Creature can be made depending on your Area of Influence size
1. YES - as you have more Evil Influence points as more you can make, limitation is upgrading DM,
2. YES - each creature is stored in pool of EI points,
3. YES - depends on points you got expanding you EI points.
4. NO - You lost points when opponent destroys you - unless YES - if EI points are not decreased by fact you lost what give you points.

Would it work? Yes, but requires specifying how fast you can make them, how to make other types and how many each will cost EI points.


Creature can be made if DM is fed with certain food items
1. YES - depends on how much food you'll deliver and DM's capacity limits their amount, but this capacity can be increased with I.e. having bigger Area of Influence,
2. NO - you need to keep feeding DM to maintain limits unless YES - AoI will limit their number,
3. NO - creatures can be made from food,
4. YES - if you have stored enough food you can create as many creatures as you have food (and DM will be capable to control them still).

Would it work? Yes, but requires feeding DM with food 24/7 unless only AoI (or other things) will be the limitation.


Creature can be made from existing on the map
1. NO - how many and what type of them depends on what and how many you'll find.
2. YES - only what you need is to get/catch/buy/hire them (somehow)
3. N/A - well here limitation is number of them on the map, so resources are not a problem if abundant.
4. NO - unless you are able to get more from map.

Would it work? Yes, but you're limited to existing on the map creatures. We could make that like in Minecraft no matter what's the map certain creatures are awlays available and easy to access. There's need to precise how we could get creatures from map.


Creatures are made in Rooms
1. YES - as more/different Rooms as more you can make, what limits their production is fulfilling certain conditions with old creatures of the same type
2. YES - only requirements are needed to be done to make more, but also NO - because each creature needs different requirements.
3. YES - you need to built rooms, but creatures are automatically created with them, actually it's also NO - if we say that cost of the Room is cost of creature, but that is more complicated,
4. YES - if you still have any Rooms, or DM to make Imps (I assume).

Would it work? Yes, but it requires specifying requirements and balance them to not be so hard to create more, but cannot be too easy to create unlimited amount of them (maybe requirements for each new creature made of the same type cluld rise? Because you can build unlimited amount of rooms, so there should be a limit not only relying on requirements that are always the same).


Creatures are made like mammals
Need more data, please answer the needs. Smile


Dwelvers aims - we want to avoid creating creatures from resources and manufactured products, also creatures need to be available every time you fulfil certain requirements/conditions and also we need to know how to make other types of creatures that one would be harder to obtain then others.
Spec: Win 10, ATI 7800 HD, res: 1280x1024x75. I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy
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#9
That's not really weird in having a way to make more creatures. Another game I break out from time to time which is a settlement building resource management game called Cultures does just that to make new people which have to grow up before they become useful. The idea of two Orcs cavorting is disturbing but funny all the same.

I like the idea Rasmus mentioned where it would be more dependent on creature happiness to create a new creature, but where is the limitation? With this we can still do as now and just build an infinite number of creatures assuming we have happy creatures. While I always love the chance to amass a large army and just wipe the map clean of all baddies in most games, I think it would be far better to be able to focus on making a smaller more efficient army that has trained well and has good equipment, instead of just creating creature cannon fodder.

If we do incorporate Evil Influence into the game, perhaps this could be used to create a limit to how many creatures you can control because you have the influence to do so. I know Sebt was concerned that if we lost all our tiles/rooms and whatever else generates influence, we would circle back to the problem of not being able to create creatures to defend what's left. A solution to that would be that the DM acts as a reservoir. As you increase your Influence, the DM gets more storage capacity for that Influence. When you lose the items that gave you that influence, your influence doesn't decrease immediately. It would take some time for it to drain down to the cap it would now be from the Influence you lost. The only way it would drain faster is if you created creatures which would cost Influence. Influence would regenerate back to your cap steadilly which would prevent you from just spamming creatures. So, if you are being sieged so bad that you are down to only the DM, then you would still be able to build creatures as a last ditch effort because let's face it, if it gets that bad, chances are you're gonna lose anyways.

Edit: Dangit Sebt, you got your reply in before me, now I need to go back and read what you put real quick...
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#10
(22-07-2014, 06:29 PM)RestOne Wrote: As we are thinking "out of the box":

Let's look how creatures are produced in the real World...
So how about including genders and set some conditions, like said above. There must be a male and a female of each creature class and each "combination" could produce a "child", if they are happy, feeded, not thirsty and i like the idea of a certain level! These childs need to grow up and are avaiable after a certain time.
On this "production" is a cooldown, so that you can only produce as many new creatures, as you have "parents". And with every new child, the standards of happiness increase.
This plus the possibility to let certain neutral creatures join you, if you have the requirements too make them happy. Or if you defeat them in battle they will join you, after they recover from their wounds.

I know that this might sound a little weird, but i thought "hey, why not".^^

I like this idea as it would feel natural, but it is way to much job to implement it, you may say that the amount of work should hinder a good game mechanic. But the problem is that many of the ideas implemented in Dwelvers that we thought were good from start has been changed later on because they wasn't fully compatible with the game play. We need to take small steps to make this work.

(22-07-2014, 07:14 PM)Sebt Wrote: 1. You can have unlimited number of cretures of a type, but there is limitation system that would not allow to make them too many.
2. Creating creatures requires only one thing to do if we want to create them and not additional resources or actions made by player for being able to make them.
3. It doesn't rely on resources or manufactured products - creatures cannot be made from things we can make unlimited unless - see point 1.


Additionally and optionally?
4. Creatures could be made no matter if your dungeon is conquered, but you still have Dark Mother or anything that could make any and still can do somen creatures.

If you have more thins we should add to needs, go ahead and post them. Smile

Point 2 and 3 is not hammered in stone. If we come up with a better solution I would implement it.

(22-07-2014, 07:14 PM)Sebt Wrote: So let's see if our ideas fulfill these needs:

Creature can be made depending on your Area of Influence size
1. YES - as you have more Evil Influence points as more you can make, limitation is upgrading DM,
2. YES - each creature is stored in pool of EI points,
3. YES - depends on points you got expanding you EI points.
4. NO - You lost points when opponent destroys you - unless YES - if EI points are not decreased by fact you lost what give you points.

Would it work? Yes, but requires specifying how fast you can make them, how to make other types and how many each will cost EI points.

I think there is a problem with the EI idea. First of if the player would make creatures out of EI then it would be like creating imps in DK, only that all creatures is created that way, which makes the game more shallow than DK. So it all comes down to how the EI is obtained, if it is a resource that grow over time it will be just like in DK. If we have it so that it only grows if the player expand his territory or torture creatures then we would have a moment-22 situation where the player can't expand his territory or capture creatures unless he have a strong enough army, and he can't get a strong enough army unless he expand or torture creatures.

(22-07-2014, 07:14 PM)Sebt Wrote: Creature can be made if DM is fed with certain food items
1. YES - depends on how much food you'll deliver and DM's capacity limits their amount, but this capacity can be increased with I.e. having bigger Area of Influence,
2. NO - you need to keep feeding DM to maintain limits unless YES - AoI will limit their number,
3. NO - creatures can be made from food,
4. YES - if you have stored enough food you can create as many creatures as you have food (and DM will be capable to control them still).

Would it work? Yes, but requires feeding DM with food 24/7 unless only AoI (or other things) will be the limitation.

What I fear here is exactly what you wrote. When the player has 20+ imps he may need to feed the DM with 40 rocks to create the next imp. And that is a lot of feeding!

(22-07-2014, 07:14 PM)Sebt Wrote: Creature can be made from existing on the map
1. NO - how many and what type of them depends on what and how many you'll find.
2. YES - only what you need is to get/catch/buy/hire them (somehow)
3. N/A - well here limitation is number of them on the map, so resources are not a problem if abundant.
4. NO - unless you are able to get more from map.

Would it work? Yes, but you're limited to existing on the map creatures. We could make that like in Minecraft no matter what's the map certain creatures are awlays available and easy to access. There's need to precise how we could get creatures from map.

This could give the same problem as with the EI, the player can't capture creatures unless he have creatures.

(22-07-2014, 07:14 PM)Sebt Wrote: Creatures are made in Rooms
1. YES - as more/different Rooms as more you can make, what limits their production is fulfilling certain conditions with old creatures of the same type
2. YES - only requirements are needed to be done to make more, but also NO - because each creature needs different requirements.
3. YES - you need to built rooms, but creatures are automatically created with them, actually it's also NO - if we say that cost of the Room is cost of creature, but that is more complicated,
4. YES - if you still have any Rooms, or DM to make Imps (I assume).

Would it work? Yes, but it requires specifying requirements and balance them to not be so hard to create more, but cannot be too easy to create unlimited amount of them (maybe requirements for each new creature made of the same type cluld rise? Because you can build unlimited amount of rooms, so there should be a limit not only relying on requirements that are always the same).

Personally I like this idea the most, I will expand a little on my previous idea and see what you think.

(22-07-2014, 07:34 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: I like the idea Rasmus mentioned where it would be more dependent on creature happiness to create a new creature, but where is the limitation? With this we can still do as now and just build an infinite number of creatures assuming we have happy creatures. While I always love the chance to amass a large army and just wipe the map clean of all baddies in most games, I think it would be far better to be able to focus on making a smaller more efficient army that has trained well and has good equipment, instead of just creating creature cannon fodder.

I fully agree here, the aim should be to enable the player to create many different creature types with not so many creatures in each. This will make the player focus more on upgrading and equipping them.

(22-07-2014, 07:34 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: If we do incorporate Evil Influence into the game, perhaps this could be used to create a limit to how many creatures you can control because you have the influence to do so. I know Sebt was concerned that if we lost all our tiles/rooms and whatever else generates influence, we would circle back to the problem of not being able to create creatures to defend what's left. A solution to that would be that the DM acts as a reservoir. As you increase your Influence, the DM gets more storage capacity for that Influence. When you lose the items that gave you that influence, your influence doesn't decrease immediately. It would take some time for it to drain down to the cap it would now be from the Influence you lost. The only way it would drain faster is if you created creatures which would cost Influence. Influence would regenerate back to your cap steadilly which would prevent you from just spamming creatures. So, if you are being sieged so bad that you are down to only the DM, then you would still be able to build creatures as a last ditch effort because let's face it, if it gets that bad, chances are you're gonna lose anyways.

I answered some of the ideas about the EI in Sebts post above, sorry Sad I am not a fan of generating EI that is used for creature production because it feels like we are making a bad copy out of how the imps are produced in DK.


I have expanded a little on my previous idea

The reason I keep spamming you all about the creature happiness being the source of making more creatures is because no items are needed to produce creatures, and it is actually pretty easy to implement and balance.

So if I may repeat myself a little here. I will only focus on the Orc creature in this example.

The Orc requires:
- Well rested, drunk and well feed.
- To be at least level 2 to be happy.
- To get really drunk at least once every 20 minute.
- To start a battle with someone else at least once every 10 minute. If the Orc faces some real enemies there will be a delay on 20 minutes, it doesn't matter if the orc wins or looses, he will still be happy (A lot of creatures will probably be beaten up and dragged to their beds unless the player engages the orcs in battle).
- To be able to be left alone from other races once in a while. (Good to build their beds separately from other races).
- To be able to pray to their God once in a while (Here is where the orc statue come into the picture)

If all the orcs in the dungeon do this they are happy and the "creature production timer" (CPT) will increase, if one of them are not happy the CPT will decrease. This by its own will make it harder for the player to keep producing creatures as there will be more creatures that are required to be happy before another one is produced.

So here is the expansion on my idea:
-----------------------------------

To limit the player from making to many creatures we could do something like this: The CPT will have to reach a one minute limit for the first creature to be produced. Then a two minute limite and so on... So we would have 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32 = 63 minutes of happy time to create the 7:th creature. (the values could be changed depending on creature type)

This would make the player focus a lot more on making more creature types, make sure that the creatures he have is happy, and upgrade them as much as possible. The thing here is that the happiness the creatures have is directly related to the dungeon design, and we could have creatures with different happiness that totally contradicts each other forcing the player to either build the dungeon in one way or the other to be able to produce more creature of one type or the other. Some creatures may hate water while other love it, some creatures only like to be around certain creatures and so on...

The CPT also enables the player have a comeback when being attacked. Lets say that the CPT for the Orc is at 17 minutes and he will not get his next Orc until it reaches 30 minutes. But if a Orc dies then he would have one less Orc and the CPT would only require 15 minutes to produce the next Orc, which means that it will produced automatically. The less creatures the player has the faster he can produce them as long as his dungeon design is efficient enough. The creatures being produced will of course be a lot weaker than the once that died, but it will definitely give the player a chance for recovery if the enemies attacking force isn't to strong.
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#11
I see the system of happiness that is a sum of different things. Like in Civilization games or Anno where happiness is a sum of goods and services you provide them and for each higher class more needs come with them, but I see some issues with what would you like to have that will sum up to the whole happiness meter.

1. Time-depending system if it comes to fights.
What if on your map there's no one to fight or to kill close enough to reach require level of happiness? Time is very relative and to keep different creatures happy enough to make more will be super hard if they'll need different time of must-kill-enemy-for-being-able-to-make-like-me-more. Also we will have prisoners - will this be possible to free them so this way you also could artificially by beating them increase happiness?

2. Level-depending system.
Will there be any cost of training? If yes depending on creature levels you could have no resources to make more creatures because you're unable to train old ones.
If there will be no cost for training I see no issue with this, but I see another: imagine a situation where I need to arrive at decision - to make more creatures or produce goods or do to her things that kind of creature do because I need what they do quickly. So I'll need target creature to stop working on something and force to train - this way I'm slowing down work on thing this creature did. In DK 1 I like to have Trolls with 1st lvl, because they're good in making traps and I see no reason to train them, what I mean is that player not every time would like to level up creatures because he will have to broke production and in game like Dwelvers where production chain can be very long for some manufacture this could end bad.

I see easy solution for this: all creatures are gaining level for what they're doing, so they level up without need to train (actually I don't see purpose of training anymore then - maybe we could make that training increases battle values, technique, unlock some fighting abilities instead of gaining levels? I even see leveling system as unnecessary anymore because everything what creature could get could be from jobs they do, from experience and knowledge they got... I'll make a special thread for this ).

3. An asocial aspect(?)
I understand why Fly and Spider don't like themselves or Vampires and Sorcerers, but why and Orc wouldn't like to leave with others? I could understand there is his natural enemy, but because others are different then Orc will be something that he don't like? He must completely don't like companion, be asocial, maybe Orcs are racists? Big Grin
Everyone likes to have their private space leaved alone, so maybe we could just make that his bed must stay away from other beds in certain distance?
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#12
Lol!!! Racist Orcs. *Grumble* "Damned Dirty Imps!"

I would like to see a basic implementation of this system system because it is really hard to imagine how well this would work in-line with keeping production chains flowing without having to wait around too long for another Imp to be produced. I'm assuming that each creature type will have their own timer, right? I like the idea of expanding what keeps a creature happy and making that more a focus in game play. It's ironic because sometimes I do keep separate living spaces for different creatures already.

Going back to how creatures were produced in DK, the only creatures that you had direct control in producing were Imps. This was either done with Gold or Mana depending on which version you were playing. All other creatures spawned automatically as soon as you captured a portal. The more portals you controlled the higher your creature cap. Also, each creature had certain requirements before they would be attracted to you dungeon. For example, if you wanted a Bile Demon you needed to have a Hatchery that was at least 5x5 and a Workshop that was 3x3. I definitely don't wanna see something like that in Dwelvers because that way was somewhat random as to what you got. As you started out, you would get Flies that had no room requirements, that while useful for scouting, after they were done with that you were left with several useless creatures you would have to kill off to allow other creature types to come through the portal.
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#13
(24-07-2014, 03:04 AM)Rasmus Wrote: The CPT will have to reach a one minute limit for the first creature to be produced. Then a two minute limite and so on... So we would have 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32 = 63 minutes of happy time to create the 7:th creature. (the values could be changed depending on creature type)

One drawback I see with this system would be being in the 60th minute for the 7th creature when suddenly you slip up on beer production for a second and you loose the orcs happiness, so you have to wait 63 more minutes.
This could be prevented with the counter going backwards when the conditions are not met instead of resetting to 0.
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#14
(24-07-2014, 12:46 PM)Sebt Wrote: 1. Time-depending system if it comes to fights.
What if on your map there's no one to fight or to kill close enough to reach require level of happiness? Time is very relative and to keep different creatures happy enough to make more will be super hard if they'll need different time of must-kill-enemy-for-being-able-to-make-like-me-more. Also we will have prisoners - will this be possible to free them so this way you also could artificially by beating them increase happiness?

I am imagining that in the future the actions the player takes will trigger reactions like more incoming enemies and so on (like raiding villages in the surface world). And if there are no creatures to fight the player may have to take the hard option to kill of all the Orcs as they are making more harm than good to your dungeon. I am imagining that the player can make a choice to make a certain creature type your enemy so that they stop being produced and becomes neutral. A action like this should definitely lower the happiness among all the creature types in the dungeon as you back-stab your own creatures and that no other creature would feel really safe.

(24-07-2014, 12:46 PM)Sebt Wrote: 2. Level-depending system.
Will there be any cost of training? If yes depending on creature levels you could have no resources to make more creatures because you're unable to train old ones.
If there will be no cost for training I see no issue with this, but I see another: imagine a situation where I need to arrive at decision - to make more creatures or produce goods or do to her things that kind of creature do because I need what they do quickly. So I'll need target creature to stop working on something and force to train - this way I'm slowing down work on thing this creature did. In DK 1 I like to have Trolls with 1st lvl, because they're good in making traps and I see no reason to train them, what I mean is that player not every time would like to level up creatures because he will have to broke production and in game like Dwelvers where production chain can be very long for some manufacture this could end bad.

I see easy solution for this: all creatures are gaining level for what they're doing, so they level up without need to train (actually I don't see purpose of training anymore then - maybe we could make that training increases battle values, technique, unlock some fighting abilities instead of gaining levels? I even see leveling system as unnecessary anymore because everything what creature could get could be from jobs they do, from experience and knowledge they got... I'll make a special thread for this ).

I could add some option queue for each creature type on what they should focus on. This queue should be handled automatically, but if the player wants to change it I think he should. Another thing about training cost may be that the punching pigs for example only can be be beaten up for so long before they are destroyed and the player has to make new ones.

Having the creatures level up by doing certain jobs is a good idea I think. Just like the imps, but I think the training room is for creatures that wants to level up faster.

(24-07-2014, 12:46 PM)Sebt Wrote: 3. An asocial aspect(?)
I understand why Fly and Spider don't like themselves or Vampires and Sorcerers, but why and Orc wouldn't like to leave with others? I could understand there is his natural enemy, but because others are different then Orc will be something that he don't like? He must completely don't like companion, be asocial, maybe Orcs are racists? Big Grin
Everyone likes to have their private space leaved alone, so maybe we could just make that his bed must stay away from other beds in certain distance?

This is the reason orcs don't like other races: http://www.forgottenkingdoms.org/help.ph...earch=true Smile

(24-07-2014, 04:52 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: Lol!!! Racist Orcs. *Grumble* "Damned Dirty Imps!"

Big Grin

(24-07-2014, 04:52 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: I would like to see a basic implementation of this system system because it is really hard to imagine how well this would work in-line with keeping production chains flowing without having to wait around too long for another Imp to be produced. I'm assuming that each creature type will have their own timer, right? I like the idea of expanding what keeps a creature happy and making that more a focus in game play. It's ironic because sometimes I do keep separate living spaces for different creatures already.

The problem is the imps, I agree, but they will be created in a lot faster phase than the other creatures as all buildings and paths made in the dungeon should attract them. I was also thinking about having some player actions speed up the imp production speed, or if a imp the dungeon is low on imps the imp production speed will double as that situation by its own could attract more imps. Another idea is to have the imps stand outside the whole timer production idea and have the DM spew them out when they are needed and make the imps jump into the DM again when they are idle for too long.

(24-07-2014, 04:52 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: Going back to how creatures were produced in DK, the only creatures that you had direct control in producing were Imps. This was either done with Gold or Mana depending on which version you were playing. All other creatures spawned automatically as soon as you captured a portal. The more portals you controlled the higher your creature cap. Also, each creature had certain requirements before they would be attracted to you dungeon. For example, if you wanted a Bile Demon you needed to have a Hatchery that was at least 5x5 and a Workshop that was 3x3. I definitely don't wanna see something like that in Dwelvers because that way was somewhat random as to what you got. As you started out, you would get Flies that had no room requirements, that while useful for scouting, after they were done with that you were left with several useless creatures you would have to kill off to allow other creature types to come through the portal.

I know the limitation of the portal system, in Dwelvers there will be no cap. I do like the idea in DK that if you build a certain room it will attract a certain creature. But after that is was very random and that was annoying. The idea I am going to implement and try out is that it is up to the player to continually design his dungeon to attract more creatures of a certain type, so if he wants more orcs he will have to focus on making the dungeon more and more orc friendly.

(24-07-2014, 05:03 PM)Excess Wrote: One drawback I see with this system would be being in the 60th minute for the 7th creature when suddenly you slip up on beer production for a second and you loose the orcs happiness, so you have to wait 63 more minutes.
This could be prevented with the counter going backwards when the conditions are not met instead of resetting to 0.

The counter is going to go backwards and not be reset. Also, I am thinking that the player could do certain actions to speed up the production speed and not having to wait 60 minutes. Giving the creatures primary requirements could solve this, like having the Orcs go out into battle could speed up the timer by 5x the normal speed and so on.
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#15
(31-07-2014, 12:03 AM)Rasmus Wrote: The idea I am going to implement and try out is that it is up to the player to continually design his dungeon to attract more creatures of a certain type, so if he wants more orcs he will have to focus on making the dungeon more and more orc friendly.

I could imagine there will be other creature types in the future with a similar attitude to combat as orcs who would be attracted also by a training room for instance. There are 2 options for the training room now, and it would be cool to be able to build an arena type area inside the training room so if they get restless they could spar. It wouldn't be as beneficial as actual combat, but it will keep them from getting depressed and then subsequently tearing through your halls ripping off Imp heads.
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