Brainstorm Creature Mechanic - Creature Production 2.0
#16
Hmm, OK Rasmus everything will be clear to us during tests. Big Grin

I have questions:
1. Will requirements for making new creatures grow globally or only per species? I mean imagine this situation:
We have 2 Orcs and we want to make another one, so to make another one we need to fulfil needs of making 3rd Orc, but after making one Orc we want to make Piggeh - so we built a room for it and it has been created. So now we have 3 Orcs and 1 Piggeh - globally we have 4 creatures now.
Now we want to make another, 4th Orc, so what will be requirements to make him? We would treat Piggeh as Orc so to make 4th Orc you'll need to fulfill requirements for 5th Orc or it doesn't matter how much you'll make other creatures - requirements for certain specie will not grow if you make creatures of other spiece, so there won't be global counter?
I'm curious because instead of of stacking Orcs we could be able to make many other creatures, so instead of 50 Orcs, we could have 20 Orcs, 20 Piggehs, 20 Impanzees, which is = 60, but if requirements will grow globally this won't be possible, because after creating 10 Orcs and 1 Piggeh to make 2nd Piggeh you'll need to fulfil requirements for 11th Piggeh.

2. How you'll be able to sacrifice/kill your own creatures? Pit of the Damned? :d
Spec: Win 10, ATI 7800 HD, res: 1280x1024x75. I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy
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#17
(31-07-2014, 01:57 AM)Mello Tonin Wrote: I could imagine there will be other creature types in the future with a similar attitude to combat as orcs who would be attracted also by a training room for instance. There are 2 options for the training room now, and it would be cool to be able to build an arena type area inside the training room so if they get restless they could spar. It wouldn't be as beneficial as actual combat, but it will keep them from getting depressed and then subsequently tearing through your halls ripping off Imp heads.

Having an arena is something I would really like to implement. This could definitely fix the issue with the Orc having the need to fight.

(31-07-2014, 10:26 AM)Sebt Wrote: 1. Will requirements for making new creatures grow globally or only per species? I mean imagine this situation:
We have 2 Orcs and we want to make another one, so to make another one we need to fulfil needs of making 3rd Orc, but after making one Orc we want to make Piggeh - so we built a room for it and it has been created. So now we have 3 Orcs and 1 Piggeh - globally we have 4 creatures now.
Now we want to make another, 4th Orc, so what will be requirements to make him? We would treat Piggeh as Orc so to make 4th Orc you'll need to fulfill requirements for 5th Orc or it doesn't matter how much you'll make other creatures - requirements for certain specie will not grow if you make creatures of other spiece, so there won't be global counter?
I'm curious because instead of of stacking Orcs we could be able to make many other creatures, so instead of 50 Orcs, we could have 20 Orcs, 20 Piggehs, 20 Impanzees, which is = 60, but if requirements will grow globally this won't be possible, because after creating 10 Orcs and 1 Piggeh to make 2nd Piggeh you'll need to fulfil requirements for 11th Piggeh.

It doesn't matter how many other creature you make, making the forth orc will always have the same difficulty even if you have 10 Piggeh or 0 Piggeh in the dungeon.

(31-07-2014, 10:26 AM)Sebt Wrote: 2. How you'll be able to sacrifice/kill your own creatures? Pit of the Damned? :d

I was thinking that the player could make a certain creature type your enemy, this would make all Orcs for example neutral, and then it is up to the player to make sure that he has a strong enough fighting force to kill them of. Or he could put them in a room full of cannons with the creature specific rally flag, and then make the Orcs your enemy. But as I said before, an action like that should lower the moral of all the other creatures in the dungeon because they wouldn't feel safe with you as their master. The penalty could be that they will get unhappy for an amount of time afterwards making the creature production slower for these creatures.
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#18
I see. Maybe just making creature happiness level so low could make it so angry that would stand against you? Like Samurai in DK could betray you. We could think about many different possibilities of how creature could turn angry at player. Maybe just a feeling that is in danger would be enough.
Spec: Win 10, ATI 7800 HD, res: 1280x1024x75. I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy
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#19
I read most of what u all said, but i dont want creatures auto produced, i want to decide myself if i want 10 orcs or 15.
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#20
You will still be able to decide it, just that it will be indirectly. Design your dungeon in a specific way and you will get more of one creature type and less of another.
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#21
(07-08-2014, 01:36 AM)Rasmus Wrote: You will still be able to decide it, just that it will be indirectly. Design your dungeon in a specific way and you will get more of one creature type and less of another.

I didn't think of it that way. I kinda like it. In the beginning, you'll be kind of forced to build your dungeon a certain way to produce certain creatures but not other.
You could have every creature available from the start, but unless you learn what each creature likes, you won't know HOW to create them.
Once you are big enough, with multiple repeated rooms you could theoretically create all the creatures at the same time, but at the beginning of the game you'll have to choose which creature you create first.

I would love to see this kind of game with creatures that are more differentiated between them. Right now, you have imps that do all the work and a whole lot of punching-bags. If we could make them all work (with each creature having a specialty as talked somewhere else) and all fight (with different tactics/effectiveness) it would present interesting challenges.

Do you start with a lot of imps to work faster and expand, or do you prefer orcs, which are lazier but deadlier? You could even start with cyclotaurs, if you know how to cater their needs from the get go.
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#22
I know, I should put more strength into making the creature personality more different... This is something I have been talking about before and I will do that, it is just a matter of priority. There are just to many other things that needs to be done first before I go into too much detail...

- So right now I have it so that the Orcs are starting creatures. If they all die there will not be produced anymore unless the player builds a orc statue or a bar room.

- The Impanzees are generated when the player starts claiming impanzee room. Just beware, these rooms can't be built by the player and if the player owns a impanzee room and enemies starts to enter it they will destroy it. So the player better make sure to protect it.

- The fishman are generated when the player starts building bridges.

- The cyclotaurs are generated when the player starts claiming the Cyclotaur maze.

- Imps are an exception here, they will be generated depending on the players workload.

- The rouges are generated when the player claims portals.

It will be rather straight forward in the upcoming version, but it will give us a good feeling on how the system works, from there I would like some input if this is a system worth polishing or if we should search for another system.

I have played with this system a couple of times now and the battles lasts so much longer and the player almost always have the feeling that he still has a small chance of surviving. Imagine this scenario, the player has 4 (level 6) orcs and is on the way of producing a seventh orc, if these dies the orc generation bar will be high enough for the player to create at least 2 - 3 more level 1 orcs almost directly, these will work as a final defense. From there it is up to the player if he wants to lock down parts of his dungeon and train these orcs as much as possible to be able to fight of the pending intruders that destroyed his last army.

I imagine that if you guys like this battle system I will get some suggestions on being able to create a second dm to be able to double the chances of survival. But one thing at a time Wink
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#23
Nice, can't wait to see how this works. Do you have any idea when it may become available to test?
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#24
Well, still have some tweaks to do, but it should be finished by the next week, and after that I will focus on the bugs which usually takes a couple of days to solve. When that is finished I will release the next version and a couple of days after that I will release it on steam (still have a trailer video to attend too).
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#25
Sounds great! Can't wait!
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#26
This idea sounds good Rasmus, it will be fun to test it out. I also like all the changes with health bars with info n stuff, what i wonder is, will there be enemies that expand later on with their own DM or so and also will their be some sort of new mode, like campaign, later on? I know u planning on multiplayer. The game i great as it is, just wondering becoz i read about AI and campaign here.
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#27
There will be campaigns and enemies with their own bases Smile
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#28
Sounds Great !
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#29
What about a room and unit combo that would allow for conversion of resources to units? Something like a voodoo priest or necromancer that would allow you to sink resources into a ritual that would result in a unit. Could either be a specific unit, like a zombie or skeleton, or have them able to summon discovered creatures.

If it's a specific unit, you could put a time limit and mounting resource cost per unit constructed. Each ritual could increase base cost by some multiplier to keep from spamming units. Specifically, don't decrease the cost if a unit is lost to make them more valuable. Subsequently, the room or priest/necromancer could have a separate ability to either capture or at least mind control enemy units just to add some additional use and/or chaos.

If they produce discovered creatures, the caveat could be a creature must be sacrificed prior to being summonable, and can only be summoned when a massive amount of resources are available. It would either reset the room counter or add additional time for the summoned creature and add to the total creature count. Each creature type could also need an individual shrine constructed in the room to summon them.

In terms of the creature production system

1. You can have unlimited number of cretures of a type, but there is limitation system that would not allow to make them too many

: It is limited by the amount of resources available, and exponentially increasing the costs would cap the amount. Since each summon would increase the cost of the next, you couldn't treat them like trash. The cost of the units could slowly decrease over time to keep the room competitive and useful. In companion to the room system, it would reward players to resource manage responsibly or aggressively expand and capture resources early.

2. Creating creatures requires only one thing to do if we want to create them and not additional resources or actions made by player for being able to make them.

: It would require separate steps to create creatures, but this is also a separate creature obtaining method, so that would be expected. A specific resource could be used, like gold, or resource donations could be made to a separate unified resource (like EI) with their frequency of donation affecting their value.

3. It doesn't rely on resources or manufactured products - creatures cannot be made from things we can make unlimited unless - see point 1.

: Theoretically there is no limit, but the upper limit of creating creatures becomes so great they would be implausible to reach, like the time limit imposed on room production. Since they also offset regular room production it would balance itself against traditional methods.

4. Creatures could be made no matter if your dungeon is conquered, but you still have Dark Mother or anything that could make any and still can do somen creatures.

: Since this is a room type, provided you have a DM and an imp, you could rebuild the room and summon new creatures. Depending on balance variables, it could allow you to mount a new offence to reclaim or protect your dungeon.

Just something I was thinking about today after reading this thread last night.
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#30
Hi Porterhouse, welcome to our little community Smile

Interesting suggestions, so you are thinking about having specific rooms to create specific creatures, and that the creatures will cost resources, they will still be thrown up by the dark mother but summoned by another room. Or having multiple creatures thrown together to create another creature. Please correct me if I misunderstood Smile

There are some issues with this that I think we have discussed earlier in one of these posts, you mentioned that creatures shouldn't be created out of unlimited resources, I agree about this, but we have gotten some objections when it comes to that when the map has been mined out the player can't create any more creatures, or if there are a limited amount of resources close to the DM the player will not be able to build a strong enough force to venture outside. I understand that this is a issue when it comes the level design, but as many levels will be randomly generated as well it could be an issue.

The current system will not rely on resources directly, but more of the dungeon design. I don't know what you will think about it, but if that fails I may have to go back to basics and make the creature production system resource dependant. But if I am going to do this I think we need some sort of a more advanced crafting system of items so that one item can replace another. Like the trading room, but a little bit different perhaps.
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