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New Feature! I & S - Progression mode implemented
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #1
I & S - Progression mode implemented
For the last day I have also been working on a way to limit the player options when they start a new game. Having all those buildings available to build can be very confusing unless you know exactly what each building need.

So here are some screenshots of how it looks:

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/ReqFishmanBed.png[/IMG]

In this screenshot you can see that to be able build a fishman bed you need to build a Wooden Bridge, or a Stone Bridge or already own a Fishman. This is because there is no reason to be able to build a fishman bed unless these requirements are fulfilled.

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/ReqCookeryRoom.png[/IMG]

The cookery room needs to have both a farm land built and a piggeh bed. This is because if these aren't built before the cookery room is built the production will fail in it. When it comes to the baking table, then a mill will be required.

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/ReqBarRoom.png[/IMG]

The bar room requires a brewing vat or a baking table to be built, because otherwise there will be no delivery of food or beer to it.
(This post was last modified: 03-02-2015 10:27 PM by Sebt.)
31-01-2015 07:05 PM
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Mello Tonin Offline
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Post: #2
RE:
Hopefully this will help people who don't know what needs have to be met before a certain creature or thing can be built. Figured this would get developed later when there were more rooms and creatures, but I guess no time like the present to get the framework going. Wouldn't it be keen if you could purpose the baking table for Bread or Baked Fish so fish have to be processed? That's nice that it says Brewing Vat or Baking Table since fish can be served raw.
31-01-2015 07:38 PM
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Tamorr Offline
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Post: #3
RE:
That is good to see, as it makes building a dungeon more functional layout for when needed instead of just building everything from the start in a specific pattern.

Allows for additions to any dungeon when needed or can build. After all a dungeon continuously changes and expands as needed.
31-01-2015 09:57 PM
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MushyroomMan Offline
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Post: #4
RE:
I like it i often build stuff i dont need this will help narrow it
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03-02-2015 02:52 PM
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Ardilor Offline
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Post: #5
RE:
So bed is no longer required to activate creature production system, since you have to own e.g. Fishman in order to build "Fishman Bed"?
(This post was last modified: 03-02-2015 03:33 PM by Ardilor.)
03-02-2015 03:31 PM
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Mello Tonin Offline
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Post: #6
RE:
That is an and/or option, which I kinda think it should be that you need the bed and bridge for this to happen. If I can just build a bed to get a creature start off with, then there isn't much need to quickly expand out to get access to creatures I don't have already.
03-02-2015 05:31 PM
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Sebt Offline
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Post: #7
RE:
Hmm, for organizational purpose I would suggest:
- separate with comma items that belongs to the same category. So Farm Land, Piggeh Bed could be presented in one line
- red and green font colors I would replace in order with grey color and white (or at least 40% of white and 90% of white) font color.
- eliminate or, I think just listing required items will do the job as changeling "Building requirements:" to "Requires (at least one):" so "or" won't be necessary to use anymore - English native speakers maybe you have better idea for that title? Tongue Also "or" takes too much place in the window.
- if building is requiring more then one item it can have "Requires (all):"
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(This post was last modified: 03-02-2015 10:26 PM by Sebt.)
03-02-2015 10:26 PM
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Tamorr Offline
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Post: #8
RE:
Yeah,

Requires (at least one of):
would make sense, at least it does for me and in way compacts it in more of a list due to the lack of or.

As far as multiple needs just have "(at least # of):" or "(all)" after "Requires" would be fine. # being if not all required but more than 1. So like this:

Requires (at least # of):
Requires (all):

I maybe native to english, but even I don't know exactness of grammer or the like. I do my best in what I do know, in how I was taught. It is roughly how I think it should be put, where english is concerned. More might be more familiar with it than I, but seems to look fine with what I put above.
06-02-2015 05:06 PM
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Mello Tonin Offline
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Post: #9
RE:
Well at least you've got the 'then' 'than' grammar down pat. I cringe every time I see these misused: to, too, two | your, you're | there, their, they're | where, wear, were (which isn't the same as the other two, but gets used a lot in their places). I'm pretty forgiving of effect and affect since that one is a tough one to figure out, but the others I won't make a correction on (I'm no Nazi), but it definitely hurts my brain.

[Edit]

Almost forgot about 'since' and 'sense'.
(This post was last modified: 06-02-2015 05:28 PM by Mello Tonin.)
06-02-2015 05:26 PM
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Sebt Offline
An upcoming creature?
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Post: #10
RE: I & S - Progression mode implemented
(06-02-2015 05:26 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote:  I'm no Nazi

Well Mello, I'm not pretty sure you aren't. Big Grin
I know, I know, you just reacted to Tamor's post above.


(06-02-2015 05:06 PM)Tamorr Wrote:  Requires (at least one of):
would make sense, at least it does for me and in way compacts it in more of a list due to the lack of or.

As far as multiple needs just have "(at least # of):" or "(all)" after "Requires" would be fine. # being if not all required but more than 1. So like this:

Requires (at least # of):
Requires (all):

That makes sense for me, you show to player how many requirements are there in number.
Spec: Win 10, ATI 7800 HD, res: 1280x1024x75. I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy
(This post was last modified: 07-02-2015 12:31 PM by Sebt.)
07-02-2015 12:31 PM
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Tamorr Offline
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Post: #11
RE:
That's good to hear.

And yeah I did imply a proof read, as english was not the best subject in schooling...>< Always working to improve, thanks.Smile
07-02-2015 08:25 PM
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UfoL Offline
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Post: #12
RE:
I think there is one issue with current progression model.
There are starting resources now, and some chests scattered around. Currently there is not much to do with them unless you build rooms and furnitures for them.
There is bunch of fish in starting resources, and we can easily build bridge to catch more. But we have no way to serve those fish, coz we cant build bar room untill we build both farmland and mill, and cookery with baking table/vat. Why to build up whole production chain if we already have some food in stock?
I think that current model of progression brings more bad than good. IMHO the rooms and buildings are too basic to try restricting them that way. The idea may prove alright with more advanced set of rooms however, while basic rooms should be all availible from start.
I think that DK solution was pretty good. There was no hardcoded requirements to meet, but you had to invent room/spell earlier in library. It was even possible to skip invention if you managed to find and/or capture unknown room to get it's blueprint. Or it was possible to steal blueprint right from enemy's library.

I am generally against raw rquirements like that. I think that they should be visible by themself. If you need for example metalworks to build prision, its not because it's said so, but because you need iron to be produced - that's already restriction, doubling it makes not much sense. Same goes with food and beer. But you still can find all those stuff and use it. Requirements like those now, forces player to go one and only path.
It would make much more sense if restrictions and requirements were based on invention and resorces, and basic rooms should be availible from start (resources needed are sufficient restriction). However few warnings in red may be helpful for newcomers to avoid mistakes.
Hope you get my point of view.
(This post was last modified: 15-02-2015 03:52 PM by UfoL.)
15-02-2015 03:45 PM
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Davgoblin Offline
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Post: #13
RE: I & S - Progression mode implemented
I have to agree with Ufol on this one. I just, didn't want to be the first nay-sayer to step up, call me a coward or just, well, I did say we needed progression, so it felt weird to condemn this since that is what I asked for. But this isn't the right way to go about it. I do think this restriction system might see some use in the future. But mostly, I'm not sure if this is the way you want to go about giving a sense of progression to your game.

Sure, it's good for new players. But, um.. what happens after those new players learn what everything does? Then it becomes unneded limitation. Now, limitations and boundaries can be a good thing. But this, I don't see these boundries as helping as much as hindering game play.

That's not to say you have to write this off as a loss. This I can see making it's way into the tutorial of the game. Or maybe into a single player campaign if and when that is implemented. But as for the free play mode, I can't see this being a good thing.

But, oh no.. It's neaarly the end of the post and I haven't suggested anyhing yet. Y'know what that means! It's time for...
Dav's Radical Suggestion time, YAAAAAY!
Today's radical suggestion is brought to you by Antroot Ale. Fit an orc, fit for a king. And by my radical imagination and in ability to finish my lofty suggestion post . Because, it seems, whenever we get to talking about a mechanic, It reminds me of a radical mechanic I brain stormed while pondering over this game. Now, this system wasn't just to give a sense of progression, as much as it was to give new players an 'in' into Dwelvers, which can be a very daunting endeavor when players first start. My suggested answer to this is what I like to call the 'Game complexity' setting.

This would be a setting that would be selected along with the game difficulty, perhaps even rooted directly to it, but I think it would still favor as being an independent selection from it. Right now, I conceive 3 settings. Simple, Basic, and Advanced. So, when one is starting there game, they would be able to set the difficulty to Easy, medium, hard, and Impossible; and would be able to select Complexity as Simple, Basic or Advanced. The default settings might root them together, Ie, Easy/simple, Normal/Simple, Hard/Basic, Impossible/Advanced. Perhaps with an option to adjust in a separate 'game customization' option.

But on to the brass tacks. In essence, The complexity would cut out, or add, respectably, sections of every production chain in the game, making them more complicated, or less complicated according to the setting.

I will demonstrate how I think this can work, but before I do, let's look at an actual production chain from the game. And then, from there, I will show how this system could simply it. Behold, the bread production chain.

--Start of Chain--
► Free Imp fetches Water Bucket from Well
► Fetched Water is brought to Farm land's Flag spot.
      ► Water Bucket is Destroyed from Free Imp's Inventory.
      ► Water Bucket is produced on Farm Land's Flag spot
► Farmland Working Imp fetches Water Bucket from Flag spot.
► Farmland Working Imp Brings Water Bucket to no growing Farm plot.
      ► Water bucket is destroyed from Farmland working Imp's inventory.
      ► Growth on corresponding Farm plot is triggered. Antroot growth cycle begins.
► Antroot Growth cycle Completes.
► Farm worker imp goes to Farm plot where Grown Antroot is located.
► Farm worker imp harvests Antroot from Farm plot.
      ► Antroot is produced.
      ► Antroot growth cycle on plot is reset to 0.
► Farm worker Imp moves Antroot to Farmland's Flag.
► Farm worker Imp Takes Antroot to Mill.
► Farm worker Imp uses places Antroot in mill.
      ► Antroot is destroyed.
      ► Flour is produced.
► Farm worker Imp takes flour to Farm land room's flag spot.
      ► Flour is destroyed from Farmland worker's inventory.
      ► Flour appears on Farmland worker's flag spot.
► Free Imp Fetches Flour from Farm land's flag spot.
► Free imp takes flour to storage area.
      ► Flour is destroyed from Free Imp's inventory.
      ► Flour appears in Storage area.
-- End of Chain --

--Start of Chain--
► Free Imp takes Flour from storage area.
      ► Flour is destroyed from Storage Area.
      ► Flour is produced in Free Imp's inventory.
► Free Imp travels to Cookery's Flag spot.
      ► Flour is destroyed from Free Imp's inventory.
      ► Flour is produced on Cookery's Flag spot.
  --Split chain--
     ► (Split 1 A) Free Imp fetches 4 pieces of wood from storage area.
           ► 4 pieces of wood are destroyed from storage area. (one by one)
           ► 4 Pieces of wood are produced in Free imp's inventory. (one by one)
      ► (Split 1 B) 4 pieces of wood are taken to the Cookery's Flag Spot. (one by one)
       ► 4 pieces of wood are destroyed from the free imp's inventory.
       ► 4 pieces of wood are produced on the Cookery's flag spot.
       ► (Split 1 C) Cookery worker Piggeh fetches 4 pieces of wood From Flag spot. (one by one)
           ► 4 pieces of wood are destroyed. (one by one)
           ► 4 Pieces of wood appear in Oven (one by one), Oven status changes to 'ready to bake'.
       ► (Split 2 A) Cookery worker Piggeh Fetches Flour from Flag spot.
           ► Flour is destroyed from Flag spot.
           ► Flour is produced in Cookery Worker Piggeh's inventory.
       ► (Split 2 B) Cookery worker travels to available oven.
           ► Flour is destroyed from Cookery worker Imp's inventory.
           ► Oven status chances to 'full'
-End of split-
► Once Oven status is both 'full' and 'ready to bake', baking cycle begins.
► After allotted time, baking cycle ends.
       ► Oven's status of 'ready to bake' is reset (Status received from Wood is reset)
       ► Oven's status of 'full' is reset. (Status received from Flour is reset)
► Bread is produced.

-End of chain-


Now, I could go on. But I think I've gotten my point across. While after playing a while we've all sort of gotten used to the production chains as they are. After reading this, I hope you all can understand just how complex this game can be to break into for new people.

Now, let's call that is the 'advanced' production chain. That's the final product, the end tier. Now, let's look at what a Simple Complexity setting might look like.

-Simple Production Chain Start-
► Growth cycle on Farm plot begins.
    ► After growth cycle is complete, Antroot is ready to harvest.
► Farm land imp Harvests Antroot from tile.
    ► Antroot growth cycle is reset.
    ► Antroot is produced in Farmland Imp's inventory.
► Farm land Imp takes Antroot to Farm land Flag spot.
    ►Antroot is destroyed from Farm land imp's inventory.
    ► Antroot appears on Farm land Flag tile.
► Free imp Gathers up Antroot.
    ►Antroot is destroyed from Flag spot tile.
    ►Antroot is produced in Free Imp's invetory.
► Free Imp Travels to storage area.
    ►Antroot is destroyed from Free Imp's inventory.
    ►Antroot is produced in Storage Area.
-End of chain-
-Start of chain
► Free Imp travels to storage area.
    ►Antroot is destroyed from storage area.
    ►Antroot is produced in Free Imp's inventory.
► Free Imp travels to Cookery's Flag spot.
    ►Antroot is destroyed from Free Imp's inventory.
    ►Antroot is produced on Cookery Flag spot tile.
► Cookery worker Piggeh travels to Cookery Flag spot.
    ►Antroot is destroyed.
    ►Antroot appears in Cookery worker Piggeh's inventory.
► Cookery Worker Piggeh Travels to oven.
    ► Antroot is destroyed from Cookery Worker Piggeh's Inventory.
    ►Oven's Status is set to both "ready to bake' and 'full'
► Baking Cycle Begins.
► Baking Cycle ends after allotted time.
    ► Bread is produced.
    ► Oven's status is reset.
-End of chain-



You'll note that Antroot is no longer turned into flour, but sent directly to the storage and then to the cookery. The oven no longer requires wood either to bake. Now, let me be clear. I do not think Dwelvers should be dumbed down!. I am merely suggesting you present the option for dumbed down production chains so that players can be introduced to the complexity of the production chains in steps.

Once a player toys around in simple mode, and getted used to this simple mode, they would move on to basic mode.

Huh? Why isn't bread being produced now? Oh, what's this? A mill? Which would of coarse be added to the list of constructables when one moves on from simple to basic mode, since there would be no need for it in simple mode. "Huh, Turns Antroot into Flour for bread.. Hmm, I guess I need to turn plants into flour now.."

Then after they become comfortable with this, they might move onto advanced. "Why aren't my minions making bread.. oh, what's this.. Bread requires wood now? Crap I need more wood!"

Again, they would be used to the steps required before this, so it wouldn't be hard for them to break into the added complexity. The goal of this is to allow players to be introduced to the complexity of Dwelvers in steps. And, perhaps, even add the option for players who, how shall we say, aren't as 'hard core' as some of us, and still allow them to enjoy your game.


I know this might require some back tracking, and could be a pain in the ass to implement. But I really think this is a good system to tackle to problem of new players being overwhelmed by the game. No to mention would allow you to introduce even -more- complicated systems if you wish to, without the fear of alienating new players.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on this.
15-02-2015 09:09 PM
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Mello Tonin Offline
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Post: #14
RE:
I wanted to read all that, but my attention span is too small, sorry. As far as the progression right now, yeah it does seem a bit restricting if you already know what does what. You likely may start with a Bar Room before anything else especially on the higher difficulties where you need Orcs like I do. We should remember that this is merely a framework to build on as the game becomes more developed. Maybe the build order will change, but really I don't see this current setup as an issue.

I start with really small rooms anyways, so I can get everything built rally quickly then worry about expansion. I can always build Orc Statues to boost Orc production on the harder difficulties. All and all, you have to build at minimum a Farm with Antroot, Cookery with Brewer, and then ultimately a Bar Room to keep the basic needs met for your people. You can always skip Bread production to get there faster since the Bar Room doesn't require the Bakery exclusively.
16-02-2015 02:29 AM
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