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My New Idea Creature Mechanic - Elite Monsters
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Davgoblin Offline
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Post: #1
Creature Mechanic - Elite Monsters
"Because Horned Reapers were bad ass for more reasons than being bad-asses."


Introduction
Does anyone remember the Horned Reapers from DK1? Well, naturally most of us are DK fans, so we do. And a lot of us missed the whiny, needy little bastards when DK2 came along, and Horny became a summon. I found, much like many other fans, that the Dark Angels were a rather lame alternative to our beloved, angry management requiring Reapers. But why was that, exactly? A side from the design, in my opinion, not being as appealing. There was the simple matter of this. They did not require as much attention. The Reapers had a sort of risk reward feel to them. Requiring, and even going so far as demanding special attention. They were the bad asses of the dungeon world. And they knew it.

This pitch is an attempt to recreate that concept, however, also expanding upon it. Not giving players a single 'bad ass monster', but rather, a small collection of them, each with there own special extremely needy needs, strengths, weaknesses, risks, rewards, and so on.

These creatures, by there very nature should be more powerful, but should also require more attention. The type of Elite a player chooses to attract to there dungeon, could diversely impact how they play.

The Short Version
Stronger creatures that have even more unique and special needs, that are harder to maintain overall; diversifying them from there common minion counterparts.

The Lengthy Version

Benefits:
♦ Giving players 'head monsters' they can identify with. Weather they find them endearing or frustrating.
♦ Introducing a a subtle 'pet game' feel, in a sense, without overly compromising other aspects of the game.
♦ Less Restriction of Monster Creativity. Everyone seems to want to pitch incredibly bad ass creatures. This gives an outlet to do so without compromising game play.
♦ Helps build dynamic game play, at least in my mind, as the type of elites chosen by the player will shape how they play.
♦ Elites do not need to be introduced all at once, and can be added with care at Dev's leisure.
♦ Busy work, but not to much. This will allow players the aspect of needing to personally suit the needs of there creatures, without it becoming to ridiculous because of the sheer number of them.

Drawbacks:
♦ Harder to Balance game play. Especially in multiplayer components of the game.
♦ More work than the average creature. More coding, more thought behind them, more work all around. I imagine more than a few of them having unique mechanics all there own, which might be a little extreme, but since each one doesn't need to be rushed out or released in a group, I think that such things are plausible. However, please note my rough concepts of things aren't set in stone. Ya'll played DK1, I'm sure everyone who has has a special place in there hearts for the reapers and how similarly needy creatures might be implemented.
♦ Creative strain. It can be hard to come up with a lot of unique stuff to make each Elite feel like it's it's own thing. I know, I've had this Idea for a while now, and I've only had about 3 different creature ideas, one of which isn't even all that well thought out. However, the benefit ya'll, the dev team, have over myself, is that you have a ton of great, creative people here on the forums and other places to draw upon. I honestly have about 12 or so creatures I came up with to pitch, but haven't done so because, frankly, that shit's kind of covered. <.<
♦ Could break the games 'Zen' quality. Am I the only one that finds Dwelvers utterly Zenful to play? It's a rather relaxing game. So, just noting, that adding to creatures with higher maintenance might take away from that.

Possibilities
These are some of the possible things that could be implemented mechanic wise for Elites.

Unique Rally flags:
Since they are Elites, and serving a similar roll to hero units in RTS's, I think each individual Elite could have it's own flag, rather than lumping them together in types. I e, if you have 2 elite say.. Dragons, each would have it's own flag, allowing for one dragon to go one place, and another dragon to go another.

(Radical Alternative) More Control:
Instead of giving players flags, since there will be a smaller number of these units, players could even be able to control these in a more RTS manner. Allowing them to use the various powers and alike to give them more control in combat, provided the creature is not angry. This could be rather neat, but would require a lot of additional code (I believe) and might destroy some of the 'hands off' feel dungeon keeper had. That might not be a bad thing, though. Dwelvers, in a lot of ways, has already not like it's more readily known predecessor.

Unique Lair:
I'm thinking each Elite would have it's unique 'lair' where it would sleep. These would be a separate room from the bedroom already implemented in the game. And would visually change once it was occupied depending on what Elite creature occupied it.

Also, unlike Bedrooms, Lairs would require to be isolated, some Elites requiring there rooms to even be walled in. Once occupied, depending on the creature that has moved into it, would allow for different unique stations to be build for that unit. Most would require bedding, and personal storage. The Bedding for rather obvious reasons, the Storage I'll cover next.

Belongings and Personal Storage:
Unlike the common rabble. Elite monsters will have there own personal possessions they gather or have with them aside from the armor there wear and the weapons they wield.
As such, most rooms will have some sort of shelving, or chest like containers the hand will require to build.

These areas is where the creatures will keep there personal effects, Giving players an element of decorative control over the elites room, but still giving a sense of it's individuality as what it happens to collect, and where it places them within the confines of the personal storage devices the player has provided them with.

As Many as you Can Handle?:
I don't think there needs to be a overall limit on how many elites one can have. My general thought is, that they are are to manage, and if you attract more than you can manage, things are going to become very, very unpleasant for you. Still, there -could- be some sort of exchange system implemented so players don't get to many of these two quickly, something tied into the influence mechanic, perhaps. Or maybe bring back Gems?


Creature Examples

Slogtrog
(This post was last modified: 30-05-2015 11:13 AM by Sebt.)
20-02-2015 07:05 AM
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Sebt Offline
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Post: #2
RE:
Dwelvers will be a game where every single creature - even of the same specie - is unique. That means:

- probably it will be done that i.e. one Piggeh will actually differ (but not very much in appearance) from other Piggeh and then this from other Piggeh, etc., so maybe each of these Piggehs will have a little different lair appearance or anything else (like each Impanzee has different haircut) - probably only skills will remain the same or be very similar.
- certain creature will be super useful in one condition where in other not or even harmful, like great worker and defender, but poor farmer and offensive fighter - this actually is related much more to a specie, but maybe nature of i.e. Piggeh, not only its physical size will determine if this Piggeh will be a great fighter or rather great supporter or neither... With bigger advantages has to come bigger disadvantages, so super strong creature will have to have a very weak point too. The ratio of advantages to disadvantages have to be more or less equal to the average stats of every creatures in game - so no more flies and bugs which later are replaced by dragons and dark mistresses because last two could replace flies and bugs in everything these could serve for - here we give the player an endless possibilities to make different combinations of creatures and strategies.

Moreover, none groups of units are planned to exist, so i.e. there are no plans to clearly mark one creature belongs to a Orcish or Undead group / specie, so there won't be Elites in terms of group of specific creatures with bigger stats, abilities, uses etc. then regular creatures, so also heroes like in Warcraft games or bosses - any single creatures which have no logical explanation to exist as one and only, that clearly distinguish from others (even of the same specie), unless it is the last of a kind. That's also why Rasmus showing creature types on diagram in http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php?tid=1362 is showing each of them separate from each other.

Looking at the nature you won't find a leader of certain specie that appearance is different... instead in game player will be able to make one creature different from others by equipping it with specific armor made only for it and no one else or whatever else player could came up with to make it specific. ATM it's only possible by equipping, in later development maybe each creature could get different stats, ability, appearance, then other of the same specie, by fulfilling certain conditions like doing special training - so the same Orc could later be a great marksman or great axeman or engineer, will see! Smile
I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy - The feasible plan to get rid of scarcity, poverty, and other incoming global issues.
(This post was last modified: 20-02-2015 10:25 PM by Sebt.)
20-02-2015 09:26 PM
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Davgoblin Offline
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Post: #3
RE:
Hm, thank you for the insight, Sebt. I have to admit, while I have read a lot of the posts and discussions about the direction of the game, and the suggested mechanics, I haven't read all of them, as well, there's freakin' a lot of them tbh.

But, after reading your post a few times, I'm not sure what you're saying is really in direct conflict with what I'm proposing. Your suggesting that creatures in the game, we'll call them 'Minions', for now, if only give a sort of title to them to differentiate them from the ones I'm proposing, all have there strengths and weaknesses. My proposition of Elites doesn't break that concept as much as give more radical shifts to it. The 'weakness' of the 'elite creature' not only being whatever weak points it might have, but also the sheer difficulty and temperament of the creature itself.

Though, I think I may see your concern in this proposal. Are saying that giving some creatures elite status would take away from the the personal touch of investing in the creatures within the minion pool?

Because you might have a valid point with that. Hm, well, I tell you what, I was going to write up some Elite creature examples tonight. I figure showing a few of the ideas I had for some of Elites and explaining how they might act and operate might better articulate what I was suggesting rather than this rather vague 'durrrr bad ass creatures!' thing to just sort of warm people up on the idea. I'll put them up, and we can discuss this. I mean, even if these creatures aren't given 'elite' status, I think there's some merit to them, and maybe with everyone's help, we can tweak this and that and make some good suggested creatures out of them.
21-02-2015 02:23 AM
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Sebt Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Creature Idea - Elite Monsters
(21-02-2015 02:23 AM)Davgoblin Wrote:  Hm, thank you for the insight, Sebt. I have to admit, while I have read a lot of the posts and discussions about the direction of the game, and the suggested mechanics, I haven't read all of them, as well, there's freakin' a lot of them tbh.

Hehe, it's in some way our fault we weren't clear with all our plans for all features and we didn't put that information in one place, will work on that.

(21-02-2015 02:23 AM)Davgoblin Wrote:  But, after reading your post a few times, I'm not sure what you're saying is really in direct conflict with what I'm proposing. Your suggesting that creatures in the game, we'll call them 'Minions', for now, if only give a sort of title to them to differentiate them from the ones I'm proposing, all have there strengths and weaknesses. My proposition of Elites doesn't break that concept as much as give more radical shifts to it. The 'weakness' of the 'elite creature' not only being whatever weak points it might have, but also the sheer difficulty and temperament of the creature itself.

Though, I think I may see your concern in this proposal. Are saying that giving some creatures elite status would take away from the the personal touch of investing in the creatures within the minion pool?

Probably some creatures will have more stat points then others, but for the sake of balancing them some indeed would require from player additional resources or attention to keep such creature happy - like in DK 1 Horned Reaper requires always to be in battle or in the Temple and player need to pay it much more money then to others to keep HR happy, but thanks to that this you have a warrior with big power by your side.

What I was trying to say about Elites is that actually every creature in game will be such, say it Elite, will require special treatment and resources, there won't be need to divide creatures into classes like Elites and others. The only one "class" that will be in Dwelvers is "specie". Smile

Every single creature will require a special treatment from player to keep'em happy, but what player have to do to make each creature happy will depend on this creature specie requirements (like all Fishmen needs water around the lair or probably we'll make Golems that instead they appear when you build a room like other creatures player will have to build them from resources in specific room - here we could have different types on Golems, so we could say all belong to Golem class, but that is just a different way of making creatures) as maybe on creature specific individual requirements (so one Fishman would need something more then other Fishman or behave differently in battle, etc. will see if that work), so actually what you wrote is one of the concept for specific specie of creature.


(21-02-2015 02:23 AM)Davgoblin Wrote:  Because you might have a valid point with that. Hm, well, I tell you what, I was going to write up some Elite creature examples tonight. I figure showing a few of the ideas I had for some of Elites and explaining how they might act and operate might better articulate what I was suggesting rather than this rather vague 'durrrr bad ass creatures!' thing to just sort of warm people up on the idea. I'll put them up, and we can discuss this. I mean, even if these creatures aren't given 'elite' status, I think there's some merit to them, and maybe with everyone's help, we can tweak this and that and make some good suggested creatures out of them.

Sure, everything you wrote here could be assigned to single creature. So instead of making a class of creatures you can make a creature with the same requirements you described in first post. Smile
I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy - The feasible plan to get rid of scarcity, poverty, and other incoming global issues.
(This post was last modified: 21-02-2015 10:25 AM by Sebt.)
21-02-2015 10:08 AM
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Davgoblin Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Creature Idea - Elite Monsters
Alright, I just finally managed to get my first elite monster concept posted. Mainly the Slogtrog. I think this might get you in a better understanding what I'm sort of thinking with these. He's not just got a few needs and quirks, he has.. well, lots.

The idea I'm thinking with these elites is that they don't just have a few things they need to keep them in line, but enough where managing them is a sink of the hands time. But in exchange, they get a creature that is utterly powerful. So, if all creatures in this game could be said to be a HR, then an Elite would be a HR on crack. Please feel free to review and give you input. I'm not 100 percent on this concept, but even if it proves to be a bust, some insight will likely be granted from the discussion and debate warranted to debunk the concept. Or maybe it'll take off or inspire something else, who knows?

Mostly, as you can see, I think these creatures will be used for combat stuff. Giving players a choice of sort of 'bad ass warrior' sorts. The higher than average needs are also to give a sort of 'pet game' feel I suggested before on a much more intimate level than what is planned. The Slogtrog is a good example I think.

I don't think there's a danger of him turning anything into Beatles and Flies. Sure, he's a strong warrior, but could you really manage 20 of them? And would 1 really replace your 20 Cyclotaurs, the creature currently filling the niche of 'badass warrior' creature?

My biggest concern, however, is still the labor and balancing required for implementing Elites such as this.
22-02-2015 01:42 AM
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Davgoblin Offline
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Post: #6
RE:
Well, I think considering Mello is quite right, this is not something that is 'here and now', I will leave the slogtrog alone here for now until the game is better suited or his presence, But I do rather like the design, and the game needs a really big fatty, fattington demon like this, so I'll likely be pushing him forward again when the time is right.

But I did gain some insight from this, Sebt is really pushing the 'all are liked horned reapers'. I don't think it's something I really thought was an aim until being told. Kinda threw me for a bit of a curve, actually. Mostly because I was under the impression the majority of creatures would be streamlined because of the sheer amount of them. But honestly, after just rolling this point of view around in my head the last few days and really digesting it.

Now I just got hit with a crazy idea. Check this out, this is a little out there, but then again, a lot of my ideas are, and I find a lot of the concepts Dwelvers aims for are just as much so, if not always attuned to how I thought the approach would be. But bare with with me..

What if... Creatures started with very basic needs at lower levels, however, as they began to level up, and acquire certain unique skill sets through study and personal learning, they became more and more self important, and thus, began to demand more and more of there hands? In essence, having normal creatures 'evolve' the concept of what we are referring to currently as an 'elite'.

So, say, Ogg the orc is rather humble at level 1, not minding sharing a room with his fellow monsters and requiring little more than a bit of ale. However, by level 4, he's not really so keen on having to share a bedroom with other monsters not of his own kin, suddenly he and his fellow orcs around the same level are asking to have there own bedroom, with a door. Being orcs, the room you make for them would begin to acquire a more 'barracks' like look. But not only that, they aren't happy with there beds, so now you have to invest some money and 'upgrade' them.

By level 6, the orcs want a place to put there stuff, and the option to building shelving and chests becomes available for you orc only room. Ogg and his fellows begin to decorate the walls, placing severed throphies on the shelves and other orcish delights. But Ogg the orc seems to have even more potential than his fellow kin, through whatever system is implemented to allow stat changes, he he becomes stronger, or just more useful than his fellow kin.

Now, Ogg wants his own room. And he wants and even grander bedding, and places to put his weapons and armor. By this time, if Mello's idea was implemented of carting monsters over, Ogg would be with you at the start of dungeons, you'd be building him his own room from the get go, designing your dungeon with him, and his fellow orcs in mind rather than uprooting older designs. With his higher status, he grows a proud pair of horns, and begins to take on more unquice characteristics. He becomes bigger than the orcs around him.

I think this could be miles, miles better than just the simple concept of a handful of bigger, badder monsters that are just given to the player. This concept would allow players to be instrumental in the growth, and nurturing of the monsters under there control. It would still offer the same risk reward system, as some spieces of monsters could have much more radical needs as they progress, but, if the training of skills was added to the mix, players would then be instrumental in deciding what skills to give to who, and having to wrestle with the choices of weather or not they can handle what a creature will become if they continue to better it.

.. I like this..
I know, this might be another radical idea lost in a mess of posts, but, input please. I think this marring of concepts might be golden.
24-02-2015 01:12 AM
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