Nick:  
Pass:     
Help Register


Post Reply 
Brainstorm Room Mechanic - Re-doing the storage rooms
Author Message
Rasmus Online
Main developer of Dwelvers
Dwelvers Developers

Posts: 3.622
Joined: Sep 2013
Reputation: 502
Post: #1
Room Mechanic - Re-doing the storage rooms
Something else that has been bugging me is the way the storage rooms are working, I would actually like to have one building per item type that the player can build. Then this building could hold an infinite number of that item type. Why I feel like this could be a good idea is because the player would build storage buildings out of strategical reasons only, where there is a farm room, they may build buildings that holds antroots, water and flour, but as each building takes one tile it has to be planned ahead. If there is no building they will have to transport the items to the DM room, which will take a longer time.

Another reason for this is that the game could be much more efficient at handling large quantities of items without lagging because the number of items stored in these storage buildings wouldn't be more than a number.

What do you think?
(This post was last modified: 30-03-2015 06:52 PM by Sebt.)
29-03-2015 01:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mag0ca Offline
Game Vlogger

Posts: 57
Joined: Jun 2014
Reputation: 22
Post: #2
RE:
I like this idea for the most part but am having a hard time imagining how it would affect gameplay (maybe it's just too early in the morning).

I am also not keen on the unlimited storage, don't really care for it on the DM either, but having it be massive amount (several hundred to a thousand) of items would be preferable.

If it's a room specific storage room would it be a new building specific for that room (aka a storage chest on a farm tile) or would you build a storage room and link it to the farm room?
29-03-2015 01:51 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Tamorr Offline
Realm Conqueror

Posts: 103
Joined: Sep 2014
Reputation: 16
Post: #3
RE:
Actually that is an lovely idea. By building you mean item like the storage barrels at DM and stuff similar what we already have? If so that seems fine. As long as there are a few options to choose from. Nothing like having a storage area filled with a portapotty shack you would normally see in an old western series/movie/pics.

It is what I imaged in mind when mention of building. ><

A simple storage shack. Maybe the item/building that is placed could change depending on what resource you designate it for? That would make it simpler to determine at a glance what would be stored there. Well it is a thought.

Anyway that seems like a decent one, and would at least for me give more use or feasibility to storage rooms. Also like you mentioned, putting less strain; less to keep track of within a storage room.Smile
29-03-2015 07:16 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
UfoL Offline
Realm Conqueror

Posts: 101
Joined: Jan 2015
Reputation: 12
Post: #4
RE:
For items on ground i think it would be worth considering use of some stacking mechanism. In minecraft for example items on the ground group into stacks of 64 if close to each other. We could use same thing here. One model for single item, and second model for small stack of items, another for big stack of items. This way, for example, game would render only three lumps of coal to represent whole pile of 64 coal pieces. Samewould go for items stored in storages.

The idea is interesting. I think you could implement room specific buffer storages. Big water barrel to store about 20 waterbuckets and a square Crates to store roots and flour. Those would reduce ammount of items cluttering floor and blue flag would become obsolete. Other rooms could use dedicated storage as well. But i dont think making infinite storage is good.

Reading your post i first though about something else though. How about implementing some cathegory specific storage constuctions in storage rooms. For example Armor stands for various armors, weapon racks, ore crates, liquid barrels, pallets for wood and ingots etc. I'd suggest to represent fill % of container as model alteration instead of placing new instances of objects on it. For example level of liquid in barrel, or height of ore heap.
The Pharaoh game had mechanism which could be good example here - storage building divided in 8 fields(plus one for worker), only one type of goods could be stored in each field and 4 stacks at most. I think we could adapt the mechanism and divide storage structures into 2x2 (preffered) or 3x3 fashion where each field would allow only one type of good, and 3 (preffered) or 4 stacks at most. Only ammount of stacks would be visible instead of individual items.
[Image: maxresdefault.jpg]
Example of weapon rack with swords grouped in stacks... or bunches... or something, but grouped anyway.
[Image: admin_weaponsRack_2.jpg]
Example of ingot storage pallets.
[Image: gold.png]
Barrel stands - different liquids can be represented by different barrel color, each for water, lava, beer, etc.
[Image: wiskeybarrel.jpg]

In case you decide for infinite storage capacity, then mentioned above separate containers for different item classes would be a must to avoid one-tiled storage black holes. Unless we want black holes... like minecraft's ender chest? For non-minecrafters - it's chest that store items in another dimension. The chest itself is just a tool to open the container in abyss. There may be infinite ammount of chests placed, but every one will open the same inventory. In dwelvers it would mean every storage room and DM would share the very same storage inventory. But personally i'd prefer another solution.
29-03-2015 07:19 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Mello Tonin Offline
Guru O' Mello

Posts: 2.216
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 176
Post: #5
RE:
The biggest problem I see now with Storage Rooms right now is that they are mostly unnecessary. The only time I use them now is for the Trade Room requirement so I place a single tile next to the DM, and when I make an excavation far from the DM. Again in this instance I build 1 tile so the Imps have a single delivery point close to take down the amount of time it takes to plot the long path back to the DM from so many job sites, then I destroy it after all local resources are gathered, and it consolidates back to the DM using a single path. If we make this room specific, then Linking will have to either go away or be redesigned.

Take the Bar Room, now I link it to the DM because fish are delivered there, and my Cookery is linked to the DM. If we say the Cookery gets a 'Pantry' to store Antroot, Water, Floor, Bread, and Beer, then we will need to be able to link the Cookery to the Bar Room. Then what about Fish? Technically it would make sense to also go to the 'Pantry' as well (especially if food quality ever comes into play - Flour + Fish + Baking Oven = Fried Fish), but if it just ends up being delivered to the DM, then no Fish for the Bar Room. Now if linking were to go away, then the duty of the creature assigned to the room could also be to gather food instead of it being delivered.

I would also have to agree with mag0ca; welcome back man sorry got slack on your channel, been real busy, but glad to see ya again. Infinite storage kinda bums me out. It just would seem strange to have infinite storage in a room although the DM having unlimited storage could be explained away as some sort of inherent ability of being a DM, but I don't really dig it.
30-03-2015 02:35 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Sebt Offline
The Evil Admin
Evil Admins

Posts: 1.567
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 98
Post: #6
RE:
Hmm, actually I can remember we talk about something similar about a year ago or more and I would like to modify it by little.

Idea is simple - storage rooms are not existing anymore, but each room has it's own storage.

For weapons there was an idea of Racks for and in-room construction (actually this could be build in every room, but we can make them for crafting-weaponry-rooms only) and Draftfting Tables which is a place of making, but also storing manufactured items - in Dungeon Keeper traps were stored in Workshops only and was someone unsatisfied with that? Wink

Fish could be stored in special cold constructions in Bar Room storages, weed in ballots in Farm Room, iron ingots on steel shelves in Metalworks Room, etc. - but each let's each item have stored in the respective rooms which was manufactured in. Smile

You could also make with this idea a better use of room space, people in DK loved to build big rooms (however not so super big like you had to build in DK 1 if want to keep workshops working unstoppable), but that would require you to build such shelves/racks etc. to have limited amount of items stored (I agree with Mello about strange feeling of infinite storage room space), but I think such one a shelve could store a really high amount of resources of certain kind of item.
I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy - The feasible plan to get rid of scarcity, poverty, and other incoming global issues.
(This post was last modified: 30-03-2015 07:42 PM by Sebt.)
30-03-2015 07:19 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Rasmus Online
Main developer of Dwelvers
Dwelvers Developers

Posts: 3.622
Joined: Sep 2013
Reputation: 502
Post: #7
RE:
I must have the storage room because of the storage room workers that works like haulers. Don't wan't to mess with that system anymore Tongue

So now I have a new screenshot:
[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/DMNewTextureAndStorage.png[/IMG]

Here you can see that I have changed the texture on the DM room, please let me know what you think Smile
Also, I returned the DM room to a limited storage and begun storing items inside the grates, this gives the player a huge storage capacity.
31-03-2015 01:23 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Tamorr Offline
Realm Conqueror

Posts: 103
Joined: Sep 2014
Reputation: 16
Post: #8
RE:
Definitely a new take on it. I actually like it. It would give more use to storage in general to expand the room(s). I honestly wasn't too fond of the dm having unlimited to begin with, as everything has a limit, it is how you go about expanding that matters. Anyway, having a large storage at the dm would effectively change how storage rooms would be used. Or rather be used more often...
31-03-2015 01:39 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Sebt Offline
The Evil Admin
Evil Admins

Posts: 1.567
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 98
Post: #9
RE: Room Mechanic - Re-doing the storage rooms
(31-03-2015 01:23 AM)Rasmus Wrote:  I must have the storage room because of the storage room workers that works like haulers. Don't wan't to mess with that system anymore Tongue

Ok, I poorly expressed myself earlier. Big Grin
I'm not actually for removing storage rooms completely, but changing their form - I'm for dividing like you wanted storage rooms each for different item, but now these storages are not rooms anymore, but certain in-room structure that serves as storage.

So actually you don't need to mess with that system, but only to change the object Imps will carry in certain items to certain room storage - like for example instead of having separate storage room for food you have actually i.e. in Farm Room a place to store weed, in Bar Room to store fish (like in kitchen), etc. - such storage in-room units could be build automatically whenever player expands a room - no need to build any storages when they can build automatically themselves. Smile

What if you don't have a room for specific item? - until you haven't built a room for storing that item it will be stored in Dark Mother's room - actually you could also makes DM'S grates a room structures too to have the same system of delivering and storing items the same for all existing rooms (in-room storage constructions to be precise now). Smile

What do you think?
I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy - The feasible plan to get rid of scarcity, poverty, and other incoming global issues.
(This post was last modified: 31-03-2015 08:16 AM by Sebt.)
31-03-2015 08:07 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Rasmus Online
Main developer of Dwelvers
Dwelvers Developers

Posts: 3.622
Joined: Sep 2013
Reputation: 502
Post: #10
RE:
Hmm, if I were to make storage for specific items in specific rooms like antroots in the farmroom, then I am worried about that it will be way to easy for the player. That he almost don't have a need for storage rooms at all unless he gets way out on the map and need a waypoint between the rooms.
31-03-2015 10:47 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Mello Tonin Offline
Guru O' Mello

Posts: 2.216
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 176
Post: #11
RE:
The biggest problem I have with Storage Rooms is that there are times when an item can be for construction, crafting, or food production like water and wood. This causes a problem when you segment out your storage rooms for a particular use which I had started doing because other items in storage were blocking my food production at times. When that happened I started creating a separate storage room only for food. Now I have to make sure that wood is being gathered from a place closer to my food store room so i can keep making bread, but also ensure I'm gathering wood from a place closer to my item storage so I can still build and craft stuff. Now that could be solved by having the ability to set a Min/Max item count in the Storage Room to guarantee that item is there when needed, and also so you don't have to shut certain productions down to keep from overfilling with one resource. Like my example with my food store, I would consistently have to stop production on Antroot because it would fill up really quick and food production would shutdown.

As far as the new DM storage look, I like it much better than the barrels and if there was an animation where an Imp had to lift the gates to store resources, that would be even better. It looks like there is still the green gasses being expelled which I don't know really fits now that this is storage. Having a limit makes sense, and I would like to see the Storage Rooms become useful again, but I really think we should be able to set quantities per items, and either reduce the number of resources or increase storage capacity of shelves. I'm not looking forward to building massive Storage Rooms again to keep everything.

That just made me think of another thing. If there is no storage space, then what do creatures with backpacks do about their haul?
31-03-2015 02:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Sebt Offline
The Evil Admin
Evil Admins

Posts: 1.567
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 98
Post: #12
RE: Room Mechanic - Re-doing the storage rooms
(31-03-2015 10:47 AM)Rasmus Wrote:  Hmm, if I were to make storage for specific items in specific rooms like antroots in the farmroom, then I am worried about that it will be way to easy for the player. That he almost don't have a need for storage rooms at all unless he gets way out on the map and need a waypoint between the rooms.

Why to make gathering items to one point harder?
Player will have storages still, but they'll be allocated in rooms and that gathers only those items which are manufactured in such room or are mentioned to gather certain resources.

Now if there would be not space anymore for certain item player will have to expand the room or if you don't like that idea to have in-room storages building automatically you can make that in-room storage units costs to be build and can be added manually by player - that would need to be done for every kind of room which in-room storage is running out of free space, but there will not be problem with what Mello said which is that one item can take too much space in the same storage room, now you have full control of your resource gathering because you'll always be informed about running out of space in certain room where because of that - and actually only that - production can shutdown because other resource took too much place.

This mechanism of in-room storages as I call it like that could have also Imps assigned to them. I.e. an Imp assigned to Bar Room will search for fish, bread, bear, etc. in place these items are manufactured and if something has been found an Imp will go to that found item respective in-room storage, take that item and then deliver to the Bar Room in-room storage, from where Imps servicing Bar guests could just take these food items and deliver to tables - no need to use blue flags which IMO a little bit to much mess with overall look of dungeon. Tongue

What if we want to store resources that are excavated far away from our dungeon? Instead of building storage rooms we can finally make a good use of carts for example. As I remember it was planned to have hydraulic mechanics that could deliver items from one place to another so if no carts we could think about hydraulic invention - here is the difficulty for a player - to take care of his transportation units, that player can be cutoff them by an enemy.
I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy - The feasible plan to get rid of scarcity, poverty, and other incoming global issues.
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2015 07:27 AM by Sebt.)
01-04-2015 07:25 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Mello Tonin Offline
Guru O' Mello

Posts: 2.216
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 176
Post: #13
RE:
Sebt makes some good points, and the more I think about it the more I like the idea of having in-room storage. 1 it would remove the blue flags from rooms, 2 it ensures that materials needed for the room are available, and 3 this wouldn't really detract from having storage rooms still. I don't think this makes it 'easier' for the player in a way that provides an unfair advantage against the computer, but instead requires them to design their rooms to accommodate the in-room storage. I haven't referenced one of my favorite civilization building games in a while, but in the game Cultures, each production house had 5 units of storage built-in to the building. A warehouse was still needed to keep the bulk of the items, but the individual doing the production work would gather to the building until the storage was maxed, then continue producing. 1 additional individual could be assigned to the building as a Carrier who would gather those resources as well which would improve the speed of production as the producer could spend more time crafting and less time gathering.

In the case of Dwelvers, in-room storage could have a max level that the storage would accept, a creature assigned to production would continue to produce as long as the materials were available, another would gather from storage to improve production. This way storage rooms would still play a large role as the capacity would be much higher than the in-room capacity, but in-room storage would help the flow of production and would look cool to have some new constructions in these rooms that reflect the storage purpose. So this could be like the racks that have been proposed for armor and weapons in the metalworks, a pantry for the cookery, or even turn the wall barrels into a store for beer instead of just a decoration.
01-04-2015 04:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Rasmus Online
Main developer of Dwelvers
Dwelvers Developers

Posts: 3.622
Joined: Sep 2013
Reputation: 502
Post: #14
RE:
Okay, so for now and so that I don't get to hang up on this I have just increased the storage amount by adding this feature:

Items in storage rooms and on the floor are now stacked together, this makes it looks more organized, and also increases the storage.

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/StorageStacking.png[/IMG]
01-04-2015 07:18 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Mello Tonin Offline
Guru O' Mello

Posts: 2.216
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 176
Post: #15
RE:
Sounds like a plan. It does seem like you're trying to get a lot of features modified before v0.9 so I think it's best to focus on the new features, and you can always go back on modify what's in place at a later time if need be.
01-04-2015 08:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


© 2013-2017 Dwelvers | Contact