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Brainstorm Room mechanic - Room size and mechanics
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Xaos Offline
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Post: #1
Room mechanic - Room size and mechanics
Hello all,

I have noticed some quirks regarding rooms.

When I first started playing, I was making nice little square rooms. I noticed that, due to placement/working direction of room items, that there was a lot of wasted floor space.

I started building only 2-tile rooms for certain things (mills, baking tables, ...) It seems to work out just fine to have a 'flag' space and the actual working item.

My main question is: How does room size affect the efficiency of a room? Will a 20-tile cookery with 1 baking table perform better than a 2-tile cookery with 1 baking table?

In fact, the only room that I have found it to be useful to make a large area room is a farm, although even that is open for debate, as I assume it may be possible to create a 'rice-patty' style farm across multiple levels.

So the tldr version: does room size matter?
(This post was last modified: 26-08-2015 10:05 AM by Sebt.)
23-08-2015 04:03 PM
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Mello Tonin Offline
Guru O' Mello

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Post: #2
RE:
There isn't really anything to room size versus efficiency. Some room sizes dictate how many items can sit at the blue flag like the ratio of farm tiles to water buckets allowed. When some balancing gets put into the game, I wouldn't be surprised to see optimal sizes for rooms, or room minimum size requirements, but for now there is nothing to it.
23-08-2015 08:42 PM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #3
RE:
I would love to get some suggestions on this, finding a good game mechanic to make the room sizes affect the production would do a lot for the game play Smile
23-08-2015 09:24 PM
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Xaos Offline
Digger of the depths

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Post: #4
RE: Room size and mechanics
(23-08-2015 09:24 PM)Rasmus Wrote:  I would love to get some suggestions on this, finding a good game mechanic to make the room sizes affect the production would do a lot for the game play Smile

In order to give any kind of constructive feedback, I have to ask the following questions:

1. Is there some reason there has to be a 'flag' tile? Can the imps not bring what is needed directly to the device rather than storing the materials on the floor? I understand that this is the default 'build' behavior; for instance, when a room is getting built, the imps bring the materials on the spot they are building and then build it once they have enough materials, but what is the reason for this behavior in a crafting device (mill, brewing vat, cooking table, forge, ...)?

2. What was the original intent of directional placement of these crafting devices? Why not have a 'top down' item that is accessible just by an imp occupying the tile? (similar to the training dummy). Is there some greater strategic plan to this mechanic?

3. Are there plans to make some of these devices upgradeable, or take up more than 1 tile?

Thank you
23-08-2015 09:50 PM
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Ghostchase Offline
Lurking in the Gloom

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Post: #5
RE: Room size and mechanics
*Pries open the hatch*
Since it's feedback you're after Rasmus and I've not given any yet Undecided

I personally rather enjoy the ability to build a tiny room and not be penalized for it.

However.... a 'comfort' modifier for the minions working in the room to improve output slightly? Say, 1 spare tile = +0.1 x product per cycle, uhm, a picture/fireplace/rug = +0.2 etc. The Piggeh for example, could also get 'comfort' using/armed with the right tool - The Cleaver = 0.2 x product.
That's my one cent for you to bounce around.

But, I do think it's a nice change to not have to abide by set room sizes.

*yanks the hatch closed*

GC

**muffled* PS..Negative 'comfort'? "there are too many baking tables in here, I'm over heating" *shrugs**
24-08-2015 09:19 PM
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wildmick Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Room size and mechanics
(23-08-2015 09:24 PM)Rasmus Wrote:  I would love to get some suggestions on this, finding a good game mechanic to make the room sizes affect the production would do a lot for the game play Smile

Bedroom = 5x5 (expanding to 5 x 9 late game). This provides 5 imp beds and 5 rows of 4 beds apiece for the first 5 creatures: orcs, piggehs, fishmen, impanzee's & rogues. (late game expanding it to include 4 more beds for knights & cyclotuars, filling the rest with imp beds)

Farm = two 2x3 plots seperated by a walkway b/w the 2 plots kinda T shaped, with 1 flour vat, and 2 wells at each point of the T, with doors on every farm plot. I seem to have an excess of antroot later in the game, so might be a bit overkill. could possibly get away with two 2x2 plots.

Bar = 5x5 (with tables in each corner and the centre tile on 3 walls. This way the chiars double up for adjacent tables.

Cookery = 2x5 with 2 bread makers and 2 beer makers.

Storage = 3x3 with a table in the centre, shelves on the walls. (with room to expand if needbe to 5x5, 7x7 etc)

Metalworking = 2x5

Trade = 2x2

Training/Prison/Catacombs = 4x4
26-08-2015 03:20 AM
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Sebt Offline
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Post: #7
RE:
About storing things in 'flag' tile it was wide discussion about to have special props I called in-room storages here: Re-doing the storage rooms, so Imps instead of putting anything on the floor (which IMHO I was really hopping it's just a placeholder because it looks really messy Tongue) put every item on shelves, barrels or racks, etc.
This way blue flags gone forever and I think that's why in-room storages should be implemented.
Allso if you want to fill up your empty room tiles why not to do that by placing such storages there too? Cool

If it comes to increasing efficiency of production - there was an idea to increase morale or workers to increase their manufacturing efficiency - so with this increase goods production speed in rooms by putting there different kind of decorations or other specific props.

I think how effective is the work in rooms should actually be set down by creatures abilities and their manufacturing skills - not same room props, however there are in reality different devices that makes production faster, but usually there are build-in upgrades... well if it comes go same upgrades mechanic - it is not I think we'll have in Dwelvers, because there is no reason wasting time and resources to build worse versions of things, but specialized in certain effect things, so as the most of devices aren't automated it's IMHO rational to base production efficiency on creature skills, abilities to make good quality products as fast as they can (like in DK).

Oh and I think it was a good idea to move this thread into the Suggestions & Feedbacks forum because it started to be a great brainstorm discussion. Smile
I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy - The feasible plan to get rid of scarcity, poverty, and other incoming global issues.
(This post was last modified: 26-08-2015 10:04 AM by Sebt.)
26-08-2015 09:47 AM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #8
RE:
(23-08-2015 09:50 PM)Xaos Wrote:  1. Is there some reason there has to be a 'flag' tile? Can the imps not bring what is needed directly to the device rather than storing the materials on the floor? I understand that this is the default 'build' behavior; for instance, when a room is getting built, the imps bring the materials on the spot they are building and then build it once they have enough materials, but what is the reason for this behavior in a crafting device (mill, brewing vat, cooking table, forge, ...)?

The flag is there are a dropping point for the room, and the reason I have a dropping point is because I have felt the need to separate the workers in the different rooms. The inspiration for this has come from The Settlers 2 where the roads you built had flags put out along the road, and between every flag there was a hauler that helped transporting the items between the flags where he was positioned so that the next hauler could take over and do the same. This avoids bottlenecks in the production chain such if each imp were to transport items all over the map.

(23-08-2015 09:50 PM)Xaos Wrote:  2. What was the original intent of directional placement of these crafting devices? Why not have a 'top down' item that is accessible just by an imp occupying the tile? (similar to the training dummy). Is there some greater strategic plan to this mechanic?

No, not really. It is just that I want the buildings to take up space in the dungeon so that the player will have to think about where to place it. Besides, one tile is pretty small and some buildings almost don't even fit in there as it is, so it does saves some modelling space to have the operational part of the building outside its own tile.

(23-08-2015 09:50 PM)Xaos Wrote:  3. Are there plans to make some of these devices upgradeable, or take up more than 1 tile?

I have been thinking about it. Perhaps if the player builds 2x2 farmlands and the production has gone really well it could upgrade itself perhaps and merge together to something bigger and more efficient. Or we could just just the excess of items that sometimes piles up in the dungeon to pay for the upgrades.

(24-08-2015 09:19 PM)Ghostchase Wrote:  I personally rather enjoy the ability to build a tiny room and not be penalized for it.

However.... a 'comfort' modifier for the minions working in the room to improve output slightly? Say, 1 spare tile = +0.1 x product per cycle, uhm, a picture/fireplace/rug = +0.2 etc. The Piggeh for example, could also get 'comfort' using/armed with the right tool - The Cleaver = 0.2 x product.
That's my one cent for you to bounce around.

Yeah sure, I know Dungeon Keeper had it so that certain room sizes increased the efficiency of that room. But I agree with you, I don't want to tell the player how he should build his room.

(26-08-2015 03:20 AM)wildmick Wrote:  Bedroom = 5x5 (expanding to 5 x 9 late game). This provides 5 imp beds and 5 rows of 4 beds apiece for the first 5 creatures: orcs, piggehs, fishmen, impanzee's & rogues. (late game expanding it to include 4 more beds for knights & cyclotuars, filling the rest with imp beds)

Farm = two 2x3 plots seperated by a walkway b/w the 2 plots kinda T shaped, with 1 flour vat, and 2 wells at each point of the T, with doors on every farm plot. I seem to have an excess of antroot later in the game, so might be a bit overkill. could possibly get away with two 2x2 plots.

Bar = 5x5 (with tables in each corner and the centre tile on 3 walls. This way the chiars double up for adjacent tables.

Cookery = 2x5 with 2 bread makers and 2 beer makers.

Storage = 3x3 with a table in the centre, shelves on the walls. (with room to expand if needbe to 5x5, 7x7 etc)

Metalworking = 2x5

Trade = 2x2

Training/Prison/Catacombs = 4x4

This is probably the way many games would handle the situation. Dungeon Keeper also rewarded the player if he built the room in a certain way with "elite creatures". But I would like to see another way to handle it in Dwelvers as I don't want to tell the player how he should design his dungeon. I could perhaps have it so that the buildings inside the room could benefit if the room surrounding it were built in a specific way. Then we would still give the player the freedom to build it how he wants to build it but with some responsibility.

(26-08-2015 09:47 AM)Sebt Wrote:  If it comes to increasing efficiency of production - there was an idea to increase morale or workers to increase their manufacturing efficiency - so with this increase goods production speed in rooms by putting there different kind of decorations or other specific props.

Decorations I like Smile

(26-08-2015 09:47 AM)Sebt Wrote:  I think how effective is the work in rooms should actually be set down by creatures abilities and their manufacturing skills - not same room props, however there are in reality different devices that makes production faster, but usually there are build-in upgrades... well if it comes go same upgrades mechanic - it is not I think we'll have in Dwelvers, because there is no reason wasting time and resources to build worse versions of things, but specialized in certain effect things, so as the most of devices aren't automated it's IMHO rational to base production efficiency on creature skills, abilities to make good quality products as fast as they can (like in DK).

I agrees about the creature efficiency not being modified by the room design... But what if we had it so that a certain space around some buildings could make them upgradeable. So for example if an iron smelter were to be upgraded then it needs 1 extra empty tile on each side of it. And when getting upgraded it would be one big iron smelter Tongue Could be pretty cool, and also make the player design and prepare the room for it right from start.
(This post was last modified: 27-08-2015 11:16 PM by Rasmus.)
27-08-2015 11:12 PM
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Sebt Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Room mechanic - Room size and mechanics
(27-08-2015 11:12 PM)Rasmus Wrote:  I agrees about the creature efficiency not being modified by the room design... But what if we had it so that a certain space around some buildings could make them upgradeable. So for example if an iron smelter were to be upgraded then it needs 1 extra empty tile on each side of it. And when getting upgraded it would be one big iron smelter Tongue Could be pretty cool, and also make the player design and prepare the room for it right from start.

That sounds like having room devices (or buildings like you like to call Tongue) to extend rather then to upgrade, but that's a neat idea! It reminds me one of my favourite and the one of the first RTS ever game series - Dune (C&C was a copy of that) - which the last sequel had a possibility to extend (rather then upgrade) Refinery to have one and one more harvester pads (so from 1 at the beginning you can extend number of pads to have 2 and then 3 pads, picture below) - it was so so much helping out in situation where you haven't money or space for such big building that you have no idea. Big Grin

[Image: 1268232377.png]
I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy - The feasible plan to get rid of scarcity, poverty, and other incoming global issues.
(This post was last modified: 28-08-2015 11:02 AM by Sebt.)
28-08-2015 10:40 AM
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