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Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #1
Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
Even thou Dungeon Keeper is a great game, it has some obvious flaws. So I want to start this topic to help Dwelvers from making the same mistakes.

I am willing to discuss my ideas, they are not hammered in stone. The game experience should please you guys firstly, then me secondly Smile

Good:
- I love the whole digging / building rooms part.
- The creatures personalities (But I think they should have been improved a little bit).
- Being a Dark Overlord.
- The humour the game brings to the player.
- The spells (but want more of them)

Needs improvement:
- The battles, they can be fun, but aren't that challenging for the player.
- That takes me to the creature hand dumping, it is great for commanding imps, but when it comes to just dumping creatures on the battlefield, it makes the game a little bit to easy.
- The torture chamber was fun. But way to easy to use, as soon as a enemy entered my dungeon I could just convert him, and very soon I had an invincible army.
- The traps/constructions made in the workshop, fun but not that imaginative (for today's standard). I would like to "Minecraft" them a little bit. Having triggers, draw wires, movable walls and so on Smile

So now when I got some of my opinions out there, I want to hear yours Smile
23-06-2013 12:06 AM
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Stabicus Offline
Dungeon Lord

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Post: #2
Re: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
Well agree with all youve mentioned so far...more things I loved...possession spell...could be improved by maybe hotkeys or short cuts to particular units...and it would be cool if you could gather up a few guys to follow you while you do it...stronger walls maybe even upgradeable...more units...loved the voice that mentioned things like monsters leaving your dungeon...hmmm maybe an upgradable Golem you could possess...as I mentioned before I dunno that picking up monsters is even needed...Ill have to play some and see what else I can think of
23-06-2013 11:24 PM
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Seriously Unserious Offline
The Ninja Dinosaur

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Post: #3
Re: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
I agree with Stabicus on strengthening up the dungeon walls. It's frustrating to go through all this trouble to build traps and a killer dungeon layout only to have the invaders dig right past all that and straight into or near your dungeon hart.

What I'd like to see are randomly placed surface entrances that the heros have to enter though, and that you have to eventually connect to if you want to keep getting the resources you need to keep building new monsters. With the connecting to and raiding from the surface being what attracts the heroes to enter your dungeon, some looking for loot, others to gain status by slaying powerful monsters, and still others, to rid their realm of evil. The motivations will influence where the invaders will go. Looters would be looking for the first storeroom they can find with something valuable and interesting to them, and once they find it will grab whatever they can carry and head for the exit. Status-hunters will leave with proof of their heroism once they have slain a sufficiently powerful monster and taken their trophy, while the do-gooders and evil rivals will be after the dark mother, and shutting you down, permanently.
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The Golden One!
24-06-2013 07:32 AM
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BlueFreakQ Offline
Dungeon Lord

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Post: #4
Re: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
Along the same vein as upgradable walls - there is one basic action that has been absent from every game in the genre, and I have always thought should be there by default. We start with a full map, and we break it apart piece by piece - but we have no way to re-build anything. Say you accidentally dig out a block that invalidates your trap design, or makes your mother vulnerable - how do you fix it? Sure, we could put a door, or a trap there - but neither works as well to hold the enemy back as the chunk of dirt we removed. Also, in most games, putting a trap or a door in that space will actually attract attention to it - when we want to hide it. Our minions will certainly have a surplus of dirt around to use, and I think the ability to re-build a basic dirt wall will be useful. It will also enable players to make move complex tunnel and trap layouts, if they can re-design as they go, and even re-claim open areas. This can be built into a more advanced feature by allowing the player to unlock the ability to build stronger blocks, reinforced, iron-laced, full metal, enchanted. We can have the dirt walls (rebuilt or normal) breakable by most enemies like normal, but the upgraded ones will only be breakable to an increasingly small number of more powerful units. That way you could actually protect your mother and layout - but even upgraded, you would never be perfectly safe, and have to watch out for the big guys (or perhaps not-so-big, just special - maybe after a failed attempt to break through, the next group of dwarves has a sapper in it. Looks normal, same size, just perhaps different equipment, or other signifier - but not blatant, or announced by the voice, so you would actually have to keep an eye out.)
24-06-2013 01:49 PM
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Stabicus Offline
Dungeon Lord

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Post: #5
Re: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
Wow some GREAT Ideas...your so right about the dirt...one wrong click and your designs flawed...And I love the different type of Invaders...Monster Hunter..after the highest level of what ever beasty is in the Dungeon...I did like the fact DK Named all the mobs...maybe this can be Incorporated somehow...Highest Level monster becomes boss of that particular type...slightly larger...glowing...who knows...must be nice to have a blank slate to work with...I've always wanted to do a game like this I just lack the talent to do it. Ill enjoy just giving my input along the way...and nagging game review sites to give it some exposure. Another thing I liked about DK...the way they tracked EVERYTHING...showing you that list at the end of the level. What about random Items or chests you can find while mining that has equip-able items for monsters. Id like so see some deep dark pools with Tentacle monsters waiting to pull folks in...make a nice trap maybe. And theres always Cthulhu...nothin brings attention to a game like Cthulhu =P
25-06-2013 01:26 AM
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Seriously Unserious Offline
The Ninja Dinosaur

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Post: #6
Re: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
I also agree with bfq about the walls, and being able to undo something if you find you don't like it or hit something by mistake. I believe dirt is kept as a resource, so why not be able to spend it on re-building a dirt wall if you need one somewhere. Another thing that can screw up a dungeon layout is having a wall with an ore seam in it, if it's in an inconvenient location, it can mess up a room and if you order an imp to dig it out so you can get access to the ore you lose the wall, and can't get a new one. Being able to dig the ore out, then have an imp put the dirt back in place as a normal wall would be very helpful. As would being able to upgrade walls to be stronger then dirt. If you have a rival keeper then he can also upgrade his walls, so you would need to make stronger/specialized creatures or tools to dig through them. This could make some levels much more challenging then they might otherwise be, without having to just resort to bigger and bigger hordes.
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The Golden One!
25-06-2013 07:54 AM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #7
Re: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
I have actually gotten a lot of request about being able to rebuild the walls. So this have been implemented into the next version (or just added to the build menu, the imps will do the work of rebuilding them in later versions). So I totally agree with this. I got so annoyed in DK when I accidentally destroyed a wall, or when a vein was in the way..

The possession spell will also be implemented, I will see if I have the time to insert it until the next version.. Right now I am working on getting the traps fixed, but hopefully I will get some time over to be able to fix it.. It isn't that much work actually Tongue

Shortcuts is a must! I can get annoyed myself when playing it and having go back and forth to the menu :/

I have thought a long time about the walls, I could spend a lot of time on building various traps and then the enemy just walk right through them by digging his own path, I didn't feel like that was okey... But haven't been able to come up with a good idea on how to fix this problem yet Sad You have some good ideas there BFQ, hopefully rebuilding and reinforcement of walls will do the trick, but I don't want the player to just be able to barricade himself so that no one can reach him for hours. But then again, it is never a good idea in a strategy game to barricade to early, because then the enemy can gather resources in peace and do a devastating attack when needed.

I want a voice, but I need to find a good one Wink

I have already named the creatures, but it is not so imaginative names so far Smile

Having hidden areas with powerful monsters and great rewards is a must Smile Mini bosses with their own generated dungeons filled with traps, the gameplay for that alone would be enough to have scenarios without any actual enemy keepers, would be fun to play in co-op too Smile Just a challenge for the player/s to get the treasure before the time is up..
25-06-2013 11:41 PM
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Seriously Unserious Offline
The Ninja Dinosaur

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Post: #8
Re: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
How about my idea of having different invaders having different goals? So not all parties of heroes are exactly goodie-goodies just out to rid the world of evil. Some are, but others will be after different things, so you have to spread your defenses out to guard many different areas then just your dark mother, and if you over-expand you can easily find your defenses spread too thin, and end up with some part of your dungeon vulnerable to attack, so you have to balance growth with defense.

I'd also like to see specialized creatures and tools that creatures can be equipped with that can serve as a counter to upgrading wall and barricading yourself in. If you try to barricade yourself, your enemies will adapt and come back with or bring in specialists to get through your walls, unless there is a path to take, in which case they will follow your dungeon paths, rather then waiting for a specialist at tunneling through whatever types of walls you have used, thus making your dungeon layout meaningful.

Also, how about exits to the surface? This could be something that the player is eventually required to connect to in order to get resources (by raiding the surface dwellers) which is what attracts their attention to start attacking/raiding/looting your dungeon.
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The Golden One!
26-06-2013 07:41 AM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #9
Re: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
I don't think I will have a surface exit, it will require to much work because it is such a big contrast to the current gameplay and graphics Sad
But I like the idea with creatures having different goals, so that the game don't get to straight forward. Balancing growth with defence is a good goal, and hopefully it will be enough to kill of those that prefer to barricade themselves, because then the growth will suffer while the enemies will roam freely. And if the enemy can focus on just attacking and expanding his territory then the player that barricaded himself will get killed rather quickly..
27-06-2013 10:34 PM
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Seriously Unserious Offline
The Ninja Dinosaur

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Post: #10
Re: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
Fair enough.

My Idea of surface exits was more of that's where attacking surface dwellers will come from and attempt to escape to when they're done in your dungeon. Your creatures going there would just mean they dissapear from the map for a while and when they return they have some random loot to take back to a storage room, and have a random chance of getting hurt, killed or followed back by a party of heroes on their raids.

But like I said, if that doesn't fit with the game as it's going now, I fully understand that.

Rasmus Wrote:Balancing growth with defence is a good goal, and hopefully it will be enough to kill of those that prefer to barricade themselves, because then the growth will suffer while the enemies will roam freely. And if the enemy can focus on just attacking and expanding his territory then the player that barricaded himself will get killed rather quickly..
That's exactly what I was thinking about. Also, if you focus on just expanding and attacking, you could find a nasty surprise waiting for you back in the heart of your own territory, perhaps some treasure hunters have looted and emptied one of your stores, or maybe a fame-seeker just killed that new uber-powerful monster you spent most of your resources on and took off with its head as "proof" of his heroism. The sort of things you don't want to come back from expanding you territory and attacking your enemies to find...
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The Golden One!
28-06-2013 05:56 AM
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ruddythepup Offline
Imp

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Post: #11
RE: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
A possible solution to replacing sections that have been dug out is to include concrete in the game. To make the needed cement a player would be required to build a Kiln room near lava. To make concrete a mixer would need to be constructed and move to the new wall location. The workers would mix the cement and create a new wall, the mixer being incased in the wall in the building process and forever lost. The concrete section could be harder to dig out restricting enemy unit’s movement but would be expensive and time consuming to build.
(This post was last modified: 18-09-2013 03:30 AM by ruddythepup.)
18-09-2013 03:29 AM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
Welcome to the forum ruddythepup Smile

I like your idea, but atm we are able to build up walls just like any other building. I prefer it that way because it is fast and simple to do, implementing your idea would require a lot of time-consuming work by the player, and building up walls should be as easy as digging them out because it is such a fundamental part of the game.

What I am a little annoyed about at the moment is that if an imp have built the wall there is always a chance that he will end up on the wrong side of it once it is finished. And there is no way for the computer to actually know what side the of the wall the player wants the imp to end up on..
18-09-2013 09:41 AM
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Mello Tonin Offline
Guru O' Mello

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Post: #13
RE: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
Couldn't it just be set so that the Imp would always pop out on the claimed territory, or have it not be instantaneous like it is now to build a wall but instead place a build object so the Imp can move out of the way?
18-09-2013 06:25 PM
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ShadowTiger Offline
2 Horsepower

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Post: #14
RE: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
What if, when we get that construction scaffolding box thing while something is being constructed, we can right-click (Or left-click; whatever.) on it, and a little green flag or something would pop up on one of its sides, and repeating that click will switch that flag in a clockwise manner around that block to indicate which side the imp should pop out on. If the computer thinks it can't get the imp out on that side, the flag will be red.

Or maybe an arrow. There's no reason for flags to be on a construction block thing.

But yeah, it is an important topic, and I'm glad it's being brought up.
18-09-2013 07:11 PM
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lukiono Offline
Dungeon Lord

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Post: #15
RE: Good and bad things about Dungeon Keeper
Good:
- For an alpha good performance
- the gameplay and micromanagement
- the art style
- animations. i love these little farm mill

Bad:
- torches and lantern to dark
- soil is to bright for my opinion
- ai has often conflicts about executing orders
- construction orders. imps stuck often in corners

kind regards
21-09-2013 09:15 AM
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