Brainstorm I & S - Evil meter
#1
So I and burningpet was discussing something interesting yesterday that I would like to share Smile

The music right now is pretty neutral and I wouldn't call it evil. But what if the player could increase his evil in the dungeon, that he needs to earn the evil before he can get it. For example the more evil creatures the player creates or the more evil deeds he does the more evil the music becomes, and on top of that certain building will be unlocked when the player have enough evil.

So this idea is still very much open for discussion because it is still something we are just throwing around, but I would like to hear your opinions about it.

The idea is that the "evil" is collected in the Dark Mother, and is shared through the whole territory owned by the player, for example if the player have 20 evil stored in the Dark Mother and own 18 tiles then he would have something like 18/20 "evil". The evil could then be increased by building certain buildings and statue, and decreased by creating creatures.

I'm thinking at this like some sort of reversed DK, in DK the player gained mana faster if he had more territory, but here the player will get punished if he expand to fast.

So an example of punishment could be that if the Dark Mother don't have enough evil the hand can't control the creatures and they will more likely become neutral.
Much evil on the other hand could be used for researching or summoning buildings or items.

This is a game mechanic that is pretty easy to implement but could give the game even more depth. So what do you think? Remember, this is just a brainstorming idea so far..
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#2
I like part of this idea, but IMO having to balance evil level with EG number of tiles owned could get very tricky, especially as we currently don't have any direct way of stopping imps from automatically claiming territory, so this could create a situation where you have enough evil for what you're doing, you are digging for resources to create more orcs, your imps break into a huge cavern and start claiming a huge amount of territory, you can't create a new orc yet because you don't have enough resources, you can't build an evil construct because you don't have enough resources yet, so your evil level falls too far behind that your current corps of creatures starts deserting, so your evil level goes down while your territory continues to expand, the imps, busy claiming territory don't collect resources they just dug out fast enough, and they too start deserting, so you now don't have enough imps to recover from this.

So so make something like this work we'd need a way to tell the imps "don't claim any new territory."

I like the idea of an evil level, in fact me and Mellow Tonin were discussing this in another thread. We were discussing how the environment could look and feel more evil, the more influence we have over the map, and more good the less control we have over the map.

IMO the amount of territory should increase your evil level, as should controlling certain very evil creatures, as well as building evil rooms or constructions such as prisons, torture chambers, or Ladies of Pain. The more territory we own, and the more evil creatures and constructions we have, the more evil the land becomes and the more evil it looks.

If the land isn't evil enough, certain creatures could desert the keeper, going neutral, certain spells that require evil to work cease to function, and certain types of rooms and constructs can't be built, although those already built will continue to function.

As the evil grows the ballencing could come from the forces of good fighting the evil lord more aggressively, so good buildings spawn enemies more frequently, and of greater power. Also, rivals could appear in unclaimed territory if evil grows high enough, in the form of perhaps a AI masters showing up, each with their own dark mother.

If you're not vigilant, good can reclaim territory from you, or even start pushing into your territory, as can rival evils if you look weak and vulnerable enough. So you would then need to balance increasing your evil level so you can attract more powerful creatures, use more powerful spells and build more evil places, with being able to protect it against the increasing threats while still expanding your territory until you own the entire map.

The evil meter could be a hidden meter that's reflected in the tone of the music and the ambiance of the environment, the more bright and cheery both are, the stronger good is relative to evil. the more dark and forbidding the land and music are, the more evil the land is. Of course, if rivals are providing more of the evil then you are, the music could take on an even different tone, like a desperate tone, indicating that evil is wining, but you some other evil is more powerful then the player, such as an AI evil lord.
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#3
Haha we could have Evil Meter instead of Reputation on the forum, just change it's name. Big Grin Than we could use this meter for future website functions that would use our community.

Also if we would have multiplayer we could collect points to unlock some stuff for the multiplayer games etc. Or just for unlocking some not available features in single player... in single player mode.

If it comes to Evil Meter in game... I thought about that too a week ago, what a surprise! Smile
The idea of changing music when your Evil Points (later known as EPs) raises is awesome!

I see Evil Meter in game like this:
- points are gathering continuously, no levels, just points.

- by having more EPs you can make better creatures, rooms, hyudralics, everything!

- by having more EPs it's easier to convert evil creatures (including evil neutrals) to your side, harder the goodly creatures.

- you can earn EPs by these methods:
*claiming tiles - as more you claim as more you can get them. It's the easiest method, but gives the least number of points. For example 1 EP per claimed tile. Claiming enemy tiles can give 2 EPs per one tile.
*capturing/claiming enemy rooms can give quite big amount of EPs, as bigger is the room as more EPs you can get. Also capturing any other objects could give some EPs.
*setting traps (hydraulic pipes doesn't count), doors, any other defensive constructions. Can give for example about 20 EPs per construction, but I think as better/more expensive is construction as more EPs you can get.
*converting enemies (as more powerful it is as more EPs you can get. That will avoid someone that would be "smart" to catch only enemy imps...)
*if we will main and additional quests that can raise our EPs by much more.
*killing enemies by creatures, lower by spells and lower by traps. These factors could give the most points except...
*... killing enemy's Dark Mother or other like that things for other sides, species, assuming that we will have more.

- as more EPs you have as more your creatures gets happiness points for killing someone, however their happiness goes down faster then normal, just because they don't have fresh meat to smash, but during some time I think we can have better rooms and other sfuff to raise creatures happiness.

- with specific amount of EPs you could unlock, for example a powerful spell or a buff bonus for certain amount of time, etc. Let's name them "Hellpowers". It would have very long cooldown time, but can be very helpful. However it shouldn't be to much strong. This would work like Dungeon Keeper secret boxes, but instead of searching for them you can use these powers just for reaching certain amount of time. What's more by unlocking one you can unlock some other Hellpowers, but you can choose one at the time.


ADDITIONALLY:
- you can be Evil or Good, be more by Miners or Protectors side (if we would have factions), a reputation meter that could give some benefits of being more by someone's side, something like this:
[Image: Reputationmeter.png]
About factions I will post in Suggestions & Feedback forum soon!
- in multiplayer regarding to above we could give player's possibility to join any of factions if one would, instead of belonging to one of the race like in Warcraft 3 here you could change races very flexibly. Each of them would gather their points like Evil gets Evil Points.
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#4
More good ideas, +1 Sebt!

I like that idea of the evil being measured in Evil Points (EPs). IMO the more creatures you have though, the more EPs you should need per creature to be worthy of their obedience. For some creatures like imps, goblins(or whatever is used as cheap fodder creature) and orcs this should be a relatively slow increase, but for major creatures such as Ladies of Pain and other powerful and very highly evil creatures, thus could increase more rapidly per creature. This could also force the player to form strategies beyond just "leveling everything up," and stocking up on the "best, most powerful" creatures. You could only have so many creatures total, and of any 1 specific type before they start becoming difficult to control or even start deserting.

Also, while increasing the size of your territory should increase your EPs, having a big territory should also require some EPs to maintain, so that you also need to build rooms and creatures to truly get the benefits of a large territory, and could even start having the EP demands of a large territory even begin to surpass the benefits if you aren't able to build the right sort of rooms, creatures and/or constructs to assert your will over the area.

An idea to handle that could be another tracking system, call it "Influence Points" (IPs) which could be a hidden stat on each tile that keeps track of who has the most influence on that tile which will determine who "owns" it, based on whoever has the highest level of influence. You could get IPs by building rooms, various dungeon constructs and having your creatures hanging around in an area. The level of control, between good aligned and evil aligned leaders could be shown by how the environment looks, if that tile looks bright and cheerful, it's mostly good aligned, if it looks dark and forbidding, it's mostly evil aligned, and this shift in appearance could be done in a gradient scale so it smoothly transitions between bright and dark depending on who's influence is growing there.

This would also eliminate the problem of imps autonomously claiming more tiles then you can handle just because you blundered into a huge cavern and now can't get you imps back from claiming territory until your dungeon is so huge can't sustain itself.
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#5
All good stuff guys! I think the music increasingly becoming more evil as your influence grows goes hand in hand like what SU mentioned we were going back and forth on. It would be a really cool way to put something unique in the game and really get the player drawn into the environment because of all the environmental queues.

While having the environmental queues more prominent as a way of knowing how much/little influence you have versus having a meter always present in the UI seems more preferable to me, it would be a good idea to have a meter in the frames you get from the creature/item menu which you could see a numerical and graphical representation of your influence.
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#6
(16-01-2014, 05:53 AM)Rasmus Wrote: The idea is that the "evil" is collected in the Dark Mother, and is shared through the whole territory owned by the player, for example if the player have 20 evil stored in the Dark Mother and own 18 tiles then he would have something like 18/20 "evil". The evil could then be increased by building certain buildings and statue, and decreased by creating creatures.
Interesting idea! Not discussing how the points are added, this might work. Though IMO the tile-points are one part of all the elements which influence the EP's.
For example, things which can be taken into account are, number of units, amount of torturing, forces defeated etc.
Then is the following problem which SU discussed:
(16-01-2014, 08:12 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: I like part of this idea, but IMO having to balance evil level with EG number of tiles owned could get very tricky, especially as we currently don't have any direct way of stopping imps from automatically claiming territory..
Yes agreed. So if you want territory to influence this there are several options:
-Either only rooms are counted as territory;
-Imps don't automatically make everything claimed, or the "claimed" is differently displayed;
(16-01-2014, 08:12 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: something like this work we'd need a way to tell the imps "don't claim any new territory."
or this!

(16-01-2014, 08:12 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: IMO the amount of territory should increase your evil level, as should controlling certain very evil creatures, as well as building evil rooms or constructions such as prisons, torture chambers, or Ladies of Pain. The more territory we own, and the more evil creatures and constructions we have, the more evil the land becomes and the more evil it looks.
Agreed!

(16-01-2014, 08:12 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: If you're not vigilant, good can reclaim territory from you, or even start pushing into your territory..
This would be epic! Again this might work better if "normal" claimed tiles and "functional" claimed tiles are displayed differently.

(16-01-2014, 08:12 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: The evil meter could be a hidden meter that's reflected in the tone of the music and the ambiance of the environment..
I think everybody agrees on this!Tongue

(16-01-2014, 06:25 PM)Sebt Wrote: Also if we would have multiplayer we could collect points to unlock some stuff for the multiplayer games etc. Or just for unlocking some not available features in single player... in single player mode.
Yes this is probably a good option to have in the game, though I'm not sure if this should be done through in-game EP's. Maybe you get certain points after clearing a dungeon or so which will be added to your account. Great idea nonetheless!

(16-01-2014, 06:25 PM)Sebt Wrote: - you can be Evil or Good, be more by Miners or Protectors side (if we would have factions), a reputation meter that could give some benefits of being more by someone's side, something like this:
You mean, we can be standard Evil or Uberdemonic!Tongue

(16-01-2014, 07:07 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: An idea to handle that could be another tracking system, call it "Influence Points" (IPs) which could be a hidden stat on each tile that keeps track of who has the most influence on that tile which will determine who "owns" it, based on whoever has the highest level of influence. You could get IPs by building rooms, various dungeon constructs and having your creatures hanging around in an area. The level of control, between good aligned and evil aligned leaders could be shown by how the environment looks, if that tile looks bright and cheerful, it's mostly good aligned, if it looks dark and forbidding, it's mostly evil aligned, and this shift in appearance could be done in a gradient scale so it smoothly transitions between bright and dark depending on who's influence is growing there.
Hmm I like the concept of Influence Points but wouldn't an Influence Field, like Black&White2, be better? Let's say certain buildings generate EP's and depending on the amount a certain "Influence Field" is generated around it.
This field may weaken near the edges which enables conquering those field by enemies. This would also perfectly display your evil influence in a dungeon, despite all the claimed tiles (which should then be seen as Explored Tiles).
You could even say that spells can only be used within this Area of Effect or are strongest in it.

(16-01-2014, 06:25 PM)Sebt Wrote: I see Evil Meter in game like this:
Yeah since I don't want to quote it entirely (space) I'll just go down the list with my edits/ideas:
I agree with Sebt that point should be gathered continuously. I think a good system would be the following:
You will get or lose points all the time.
Points are continuously generated by certain rooms, prisoners and a standard number of the darkmother.
Points are once generated by (almost everything Sebt said): an enemy kill, a conquering of X tiles lairs/minidungeons, a quest.
Points are continuously lost by your creatures. Each creature will have a cost/salary of X EP's per minute. Stronger creatures cost more. So you have to find a balance in expanding your dungeon and 'paying' your creatures.
Points are once lost by a friendly kill, a destruction of a building, a lost tile, (and maybe spells?).

I don't think all building should give evil points, or at least not so much. I guess it's difficult finding a balance with all factors.

So if your dungeon is expanding and your EP's are going up, at a certain 'levels of EP' creatures, spells or buildings are unlocked.
Higher creatures require higher levels of EP to maintain. So if you give more than you're earning, certain creatures might become neutral, or riot.
Spells could become unusable or have a weak effect.
And I guess building should stay unlocked once you've done it, otherwise you will probably never recover.
(Example: You continuously get +13EP. Once you have 200EP you unlock/attract Chimpanzee's. Later on you have 250EP but are continuously losing -1EP because you build too many units or whatev. Once your EP becomes 199 the Chimpanzee's will show you the finger. You are not evil enough anymore)

This could be combined with the visual representation suggested by Mello:
(17-01-2014, 11:35 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: While having the environmental queues more prominent as a way of knowing how much/little influence you have versus having a meter always present in the UI seems more preferable to me, it would be a good idea to have a meter in the frames you get from the creature/item menu which you could see a numerical and graphical representation of your influence.
Agreed, a visual representation of EP's or Influence Points/Fields (whatever is implemented) would be great!
IMO a colored bar to see your progress with a number like +2 or -13 to see how much points you are gaining/losing.
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#7
(18-01-2014, 01:37 AM)Mastergoose Wrote: Hmm I like the concept of Influence Points but wouldn't an Influence Field, like Black&White2, be better? Let's say certain buildings generate EP's and depending on the amount a certain "Influence Field" is generated around it.
This field may weaken near the edges which enables conquering those field by enemies.

...or this field could be represented as the territorial boundaries are now, but instead of dashes we have something a lil bit more evil like a fog of some kind or something that resembles a force field. Areas of this boundary would be weaker if there weren't objects near it to strengthen it such as rooms, or traps or what have you.
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#8
Great comments and suggestions Goose! +1 all the way.

The idea I had for IPs would be something that could work alongside the EPs as outlined in this thread. My thinking is that the IPs work much the same way as culture works in Civilization 4. Each room, creature, and construction produces a field of X amount of IPs per unit of time, and each tile within the area of effect gets the owner's IPs added to it. To make this work, each tile would have to have 1 IP stat for each faction in the game, or at least 1 for each faction that has at least 1 IP on it. Whoever has the most IPs on a tile owns it, if no one has any IPs on it, then it's unowned. Also, the effects of each IP producer should be cumulative, so if you built a cannon near a tile, that cannon would start producing 2 IPs/minute within its area of effect, and let's say an orc hangs around that area for a few minutes and it generates 1 IP/minute, all tiles within the IP radius of both the cannon and the orc would get 3 IP/minute, anything within the area of effect of just the cannon would get 2 and anything within the area of effect of just the orc would get 1.

The accumulation of IPs on each tile for each faction would also be cumulative, so after 3 minutes of a tile being under the influence of the cannon and orc, you would have 9 IPs on that tile. Now let's say a goodie-goodie dwarf faction builds a guard tower next near that tile, and it generates 5 IPs on the tile in question, then after 1 minute you would have 12 IPs, the dwarves would have 5 IPs and you would still be in control but the dwarves would be on pace to oust you from that tile in about 4 minutes if nothing else changes.

Of course, if the Dwarves were to attack and kill your orc, and destroy that cannon, your IPs could also start to drop by a certain amount or percentage each minute until it reaches 0, signifying that your influence there is waning with nothing there to exert your influence on that tile. If you were to later kill all dwarves but then your orcs left the area, the dwarves influence would also start dropping in a similar way, so the tile would eventually revert back to neutral or unowned.

So IPs would be for owning and controlling territory, while the EPs would be for building more evil things and generating more evil creatures.
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#9
Sebt Wrote:Haha we could have Evil Meter instead of Reputation on the forum, just change it's name. Big Grin Than we could use this meter for future website functions that would use our community.

I like that a lot Big Grin Lets see what we can do Wink

Sebt Wrote:*converting enemies (as more powerful it is as more EPs you can get. That will avoid someone that would be "smart" to catch only enemy imps...)

I like that one especially, I have said it before, it was way to easy to convert enemies in DK, having the EP decide how easy it is would really fix this issue.

A lot of good ideas Sebt, but these two were the once I liked the most and will probably get implemented Smile But I do also like the evil meter you presented, having a neutral point between good and evil to start with, maybe the creatures will be weaker if their master is to good and stronger if their master is evil and so on.

Hmm, one thing to bare in mind is that I would probably want a balance with the EP, that not everything done will increase it, if something drains the EP we would be able to balance the game, like having EP drained when expanding the dungeon to fast or something like that.

I don't know if anyone of you have played "The Last Remnant", but that game had a "moral" bar, when the player lost battles the moral got lower and the characters did lower damage, and vice versa. The player could of course cast spells to turn it around. But it made it fun because meeting even low level creatures when the moral was to low could be hard.


SU Wrote:Also, while increasing the size of your territory should increase your EPs, having a big territory should also require some EPs to maintain, so that you also need to build rooms and creatures to truly get the benefits of a large territory, and could even start having the EP demands of a large territory even begin to surpass the benefits if you aren't able to build the right sort of rooms, creatures and/or constructs to assert your will over the area.

This one makes more sense than losing points by claiming tiles, but my example was more to show that the EP meter could balance the game play if necessary.

SU Wrote:An idea to handle that could be another tracking system, call it "Influence Points" (IPs) which could be a hidden stat on each tile that keeps track of who has the most influence on that tile which will determine who "owns" it, based on whoever has the highest level of influence. You could get IPs by building rooms, various dungeon constructs and having your creatures hanging around in an area. The level of control, between good aligned and evil aligned leaders could be shown by how the environment looks, if that tile looks bright and cheerful, it's mostly good aligned, if it looks dark and forbidding, it's mostly evil aligned, and this shift in appearance could be done in a gradient scale so it smoothly transitions between bright and dark depending on who's influence is growing there.

Hmm, so the bottom line is that the IPs is creating the claimed walls and tiles? Right now I only have thought of it like having a certain HP on the walls and tiles, but this is definitely a interesting suggestion. It makes me think of "paying" EP to create the tiles, that the land is transformed to your own by your evil somehow. But then it would cost EP to claim tiles, if looking at it in this way it would make sense to having the EP lowered when expanding the territory to fast.

Mello Wrote:While having the environmental queues more prominent as a way of knowing how much/little influence you have versus having a meter always present in the UI seems more preferable to me, it would be a good idea to have a meter in the frames you get from the creature/item menu which you could see a numerical and graphical representation of your influence.

Another good idea, this would give the player more control and be able to make decisions of removing objects / creatures in the dungeon that cost to much EPConfused

Mastergoose Wrote:I agree with Sebt that point should be gathered continuously. I think a good system would be the following:
You will get or lose points all the time.
Points are continuously generated by certain rooms, prisoners and a standard number of the darkmother.
Points are once generated by (almost everything Sebt said): an enemy kill, a conquering of X tiles lairs/minidungeons, a quest.
Points are continuously lost by your creatures. Each creature will have a cost/salary of X EP's per minute. Stronger creatures cost more. So you have to find a balance in expanding your dungeon and 'paying' your creatures.
Points are once lost by a friendly kill, a destruction of a building, a lost tile, (and maybe spells?).

I agree with Sebt too, having it gathered continuously would probably make the game-play a lot smoother and avoid the player to get "stuck". I also like the idea you had there Mastergoose that the creatures takes EPConfused as salary. But we will of course have to experiment with it a bit.

SU Wrote:So IPs would be for owning and controlling territory, while the EPs would be for building more evil things and generating more evil creatures.

Hmm, well, I do like the idea, but as we haven't implemented EP yet I would like to start with that one and if it could all be controlled by EP it would be easier for the player because I don't want to scare him of by having to much things to keep track of Tongue
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#10
Ok let's just say that EPs = EP, so EP means just Evil Points, that would look more esthetic. Tongue

Seriously Unserious Wrote:IMO the more creatures you have though, the more EP you should need per creature to be worthy of their obedience. For some creatures like imps, goblins(or whatever is used as cheap fodder creature) and orcs this should be a relatively slow increase, but for major creatures such as Ladies of Pain and other powerful and very highly evil creatures, thus could increase more rapidly per creature.

Very good idea. For example: 1 Goblin's upkeep is 100, second - 120, etc. after obtaining 1 Lady of Pain that would need 1200, the upkeep of 3rd Goblin would jump to 180! So to have 3 Goblins and 1 Lady of Pain you would need 100 + 120 + 1200 + 180 = 1600 EP per time unit. Is it that about you thought SU?
This would avoid having big amount of creatures and we has to choose very carefully wich we need more, self balancing game, great! Smile


Rasmus "Rocket Keyboard" a.k.a Ralleman Wrote:Hmm, one thing to bare in mind is that I would probably want a balance with the EP, that not everything done will increase it, if something drains the EP we would be able to balance the game, like having EP drained when expanding the dungeon to fast or something like that.

Coming back to previous paragraph - this system would avoid EP overloading, because you could lose your points by:
- losing a creature (by enemy or by your fault!), tile, room, trap, Dark Mother, everything that is claimed by you equal to points you can get for making/claiming them + 10%, so for example loosing Metal works room that would need 50 EP per tile, that is 3x3 and have 2 x Iron Smelters that it's EP upkeep costs 120 EP each - you need (3 x 3 x 50) + (2 x 120) = 450 + 240 = 690 EP.
If it comes to tiles you can get x2 EP per enemy tile, instead of 1 that you could earn from claming no one's path... Maybe change x2 to x1.5 for better balance.
- Loosing whole room will cost you 690 + 10%, so 690 + (690*0.1) = 690 + 69 = 759 <- this number of EP you will lose losing this room. Evil is losing something? How pathetic, you need to be punished, so you'll lose more EP, buhahahaha!
- if converted in torture room enemy will dead you gain only 10% of what you could get if you convert this creature to your side. Also if the creature would be freed (also in prison room!) you could lose some of your EP - very nasty punishment!
- if you won't kill enemy creature, so just stun it to be able grab that creature to your prison you won't get any EP for that, only if you kill it, but! If your creature will be imprisoned and then converted to enemy side you will lose your EPs hard, for example the same amount of EP that is needed to make loosed creature + 50% of it's upkeep!
- special power that I've described in my last post (Hellpowers) could drain EP normally - maybe EP could be a kind of mana then too? If points would be generated continuously (which shouldn't generate too much EP) this would avoid having too much EP that would threatening your expansion.

Everything is about balancing it well.


Seriously Unserious Wrote:Also, while increasing the size of your territory should increase your EP, having a big territory should also require some EP to maintain, so that you also need to build rooms and creatures to truly get the benefits of a large territory, and could even start having the EP demands of a large territory even begin to surpass the benefits if you aren't able to build the right sort of rooms, creatures and/or constructs to assert your will over the area.

Well expanding territory would be the most basic method to gather EP, but yes. Some things could cost you EP so it would be possible to have less EP than you've gather from claiming territories. Then having big territories to be cost-effective should give us benefits, these could be:
- as bigger is your territory as faster are your Imps.
- as bigger is your territory as faster your Imps digging.
- as bigger is your territory as your Imps needs less time to dig out blocks.
- as bigger is your territory as more resources you can get from one block - but in this case you would really need it big to get twice more resources.
- as bigger is your territory as your sources of water, plants etc exhaust less.
Choice how many of them would be there. Smile


Mastergoose Wrote:Maybe you get certain points after clearing a dungeon or so which will be added to your account.

This is good idea. Also if you've played DK 1 or DK 2 you had many factors that sums up with your overall score. Than number of EP depending on how much potentially you can gather in a map would be summed up with your score using specific equation. Maybe this would calculate with your account overall points then? Smile


Mastergoose Wrote:You mean, we can be standard Evil or Uberdemonic! Tongue

Rasmus "Rocket Keyboard" a.k.a Ralleman Wrote:But I do also like the evil meter you presented, having a neutral point between good and evil to start with, maybe the creatures will be weaker if their master is to good and stronger if their master is evil and so on.

Well it's a good idea too! By what I mean by "you can be Evil or Good, be more by Miners or Protectors side (if we would have factions), a reputation meter that could give some benefits of being more by someone's side, something like this" is to apply reputation meter that would influence gathering your EP.

For example on the map there are 3 good factions of creatures and 2 evil. Killing good, but being evil gives you reputation in evil factions, from which you could get some benefits (maybe cheaper units, having them by your side when enemy would attack you, if it comes to EP - you could get more them if you has evil factions by your side, just because of that etc. What do you think?). Killing evil being an evil could influence gathering EP - having good by your side being evil is mind blowing, so you lose your EP just because you have them by your side - sometime you wouldn't have a choice, this is another very hard element of strategy you could have.
At the beginning you have 0% of anyone's reputation, if you want one of the side to by on your side you would need have 60-70% of reputation meter.


Rasmus "Rocket Keyboard" a.k.a Ralleman Wrote:I don't know if anyone of you have played "The Last Remnant", but that game had a "moral" bar, when the player lost battles the moral got lower and the characters did lower damage, and vice versa. The player could of course cast spells to turn it around. But it made it fun because meeting even low level creatures when the moral was to low could be hard.

You mean by having morale meter globally? Like in FIFA games? Hmm maybe if we would have EP decreasing on our EP Meter that would affect creatures morale? Their morale could be lowering by happiness meter, so you wouldn't need to have global morale meter, which I didn't like in FIFA games to be honest, each unit/person is individual, depending on it's Nature (that I've suggest we could implement), factors that raises happiness like regular paying, entertainmens for these which lower happiness like walking on dead ally body, lack of entertainment etc. and other stuff which would regulate morale level. What do you think about that?
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#11
Sebt Wrote:Very good idea. For example: 1 Goblin's upkeep is 100, second - 120, etc. after obtaining 1 Lady of Pain that would need 1200, the upkeep of 3rd Goblin would jump to 180! So to have 3 Goblins and 1 Lady of Pain you would need 100 + 120 + 1200 + 180 = 1600 EP per time unit. Is it that about you thought SU?
This would avoid having big amount of creatures and we has to choose very carefully wich we need more, self balancing game, great! Smile
That's exactly what I have in mind. Some powerful creatures could have their EP demands grow faster then others as more are added, so for your example, the Goblins, being a common, weak fodder creature, would have small EP demands and it would increase at a very slow rate. I'd say have it grow exponentially, at least to a point, rather then linearly as the effects of linear growth diminish proportionately as the number grows, so to use your example, if goblin #1 (g1 from now on) cost 100 EP, g2 would cost 10% more, so 110 EP (100 + (100 * 0.1)), g3 would cost 121 EP (110 + (110 * 0.1)), g4 133 (121 + (121 * 0.1)), and so on, so if you try to get a huge number, you will find the total EP demands of each creature will start to grow very quickly. For goblins this rate of growth would start out very slow at first as they're a type of creature that you need in numbers for them to be effective anyways, so that's part of the balancing, and part of what makes these weak guys still attractive, even when you've got bigger, badder and better creatures available to you.

To continue with your example, the first Lady of Pain (LoP1) would cost 1200 as per your example, but the number of goblins would not have any affect on the cost of your LoP1, other then in determining if you can afford the EP needed to control LP1. If the EP cost growth rate of Ladies of Pain was 20%, then LoP2 would cost 1200 + (1200 * 0.2) = 1440 EP and LoP3 would cost 1440 + (1440 * 0.2) = 1728.

So the evil demands of weak creatures like goblins would start small and grow slow, whereas the evil demands of creatures like Ladies of Pain would start large and grow very rapidly.

If you try to create creatures who's EP demands are higher then your current EP amount, then each creature of that type could have a random change per time interval of going rogue, and the more over your EP amount they are, the more likely it will be that creatures will go rogue. This check would continue until either your EP raises up enough to support the number of creatures of that type you have, or enough of them go rogue that their EP demands drop to your current amount.

By "go rogue" I mean that the creature becomes neutral and is treated by your creatures as an enemy. In the event that a creature controls other creatures, such as a Lady of Pain and her Helots, she would take her Helots with her should she go rogue.

Rasmus Wrote:Hmm, well, I do like the idea, but as we haven't implemented EP yet I would like to start with that one and if it could all be controlled by EP it would be easier for the player because I don't want to scare him of by having to much things to keep track of Tongue
IMO having both EP and IP would not be too much for the user to keep track of, any more then having gold and culture was too much to keep track of in Civ 4, especially with the new messaging system and go to even feature. Implementing the auto-repair feature would further cap things off as not having too much to deal with. If you do end up with too many things to deal with, it's probably because you're in a crisis of some sort and as the user, you'd just have to prioritize what you deal with and when, just like in real life. Prioritizing activities fast is all part of RTS games, IMO.

Anyhow, everyone's coming up with excellent ideas, I think we all deserve a +1 to our reps for this thread! Big Grin
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#12
Yea +1 for you guys, thanks SU for elaborate my and your idea for some more. Smile
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#13
This is an interesting concept. Would there be any reason to NOT strive to be as evil as possible? As in, XX is not available to players that are 100% evil.

So what would be the opposite of the Evil point on the axis? Good? Could I still win the game by playing as "good" as possible and recruiting neutral creatures and unicorns? If I was 100% evil, would good or neutral creatures under my control seek to escape my dungeon?

The second Overlord game had a Destruction <-> Domination meter instead of Good <-> Evil. Destruction was the chaotic alignment that acknowledged those that chose to loot and pillage to get a medium sized reward now. Domination was the lawful alignment for those that would enslave the populace to reap a larger reward spread out over time.
Indie Games to check out:
Dwelvers - Dungeon Management game with 3D digging and economic focus
War for the Overworld - Dungeon Keeper 2 spiritual successor
Dwarf Fortress - the ultimate dwarven simulation engine
Isomer - Mine, Build, and Explore as a squad of aliens crash landed on a foreign world
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#14
Oooohhhhhhh, evil music and even more evil music. Please, please, please .. use you evil powers and work work out a deal with Nox Arcana .. the masters of evil music. They have some not so evil and some down right scary music. If you haven't heard of them, here is a link to their YouTube Channel.
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[insert witty text here]
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#15
That sort of music would fit in when the land's getting very evil for sure. Not the sort of mood I want to be in when I'm about to go to sleep in a few minutes though Confused so I'll listen to them more closely tomorrow.
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