My New Idea Room Ideas - Buildings for Metalworks Room/Workshop
#31
(08-04-2014, 11:22 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: I think it would be nice to come back to this a lil bit down the road once we see it in action. I'm thinking that it wouldn't be that much harder needing to know if I'm gonna make a tunic, I need to build a Loom, or I need to make some leather armor, well I need to have a Tanner's Rack. Having all that in one bench does save space, but in my opinion it would be really silly to have different types of crafters all going to the same bench, swing a hammer a few times (as is the custom for many games) and VOILA, we have an item.

Hmm, you make a good point. But at the moment we don't have any textile in the game, just leather. So I could make the Loom later on in the future instead. As I understand it, tanning is the process of treating skins of animals to produce leather, not to make the leather into leather armours. The problem here is that if I would have a tanning rack then I would have to have unprocessed leather, meaning that from the butcher, we will get both meat and unprocessed leather/skin from the animal, then we go to the tanning rack to make it into leather that we can use, and then take it to the workbench to make it into a leather armour.

What I am purposing is to jump over the tanning procedure and make the butcher create the leather directly, so we would get both meat and leather from him. I am not to keen on having a Workbench doing to many different stuff at once, but as I see it the workbench would actually only do the leather as the blacksmith would do all the weapons and armours.


(10-04-2014, 09:51 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:
Rasmus Wrote:This would mean that we will only need:
- Rope maker
- Workbench
- Blacksmith's Forge and anvil.
- Iron smelter.
If you go that route, you would still need the weaver's loom to make the cloth and the tannery to convert the raw skins into leather. I suppose uncured hides could be worked with but that would have to be used to quickly make an inferior product as raw hides are weaker (and smellier) then they are after being tanned properly.

Also, weavers don't make leather, tanners do. Leather is not woven, it's tanned from raw animal skins. Cloth is woven, from some sort of fibers, such as animal hair or plant fibers, to make a sheet (bolt) of cloth, which is then cut and sewn by either a tailor or seamstress into some sort of cloth garment. Leather could be either cut and tied with ropes into shape or cut sewn into shape by a tailor.

(Sorry, I may have mixed it up a little bit when talking about the tannery and what it does in my previous comments.)

The weaver's loom could wait as we don't have any textile clothes in the game yet. The tannery is still an open question for a couple of more days..

Okay so what about this then?
- Rope maker (makes ropes)
- Tailor (makes leather armours out of leather)
- Blacksmith's Forge and anvil (makes all weapons and heavy armour out of iron ingots, all heavy armours will also require a leather armour)
- Butcher (Will be in the cookery room, and produce leather and skin)
- Tannery (Will make the skin into leather)

The thing here is that should we jump over the tannery and make the butcher produce the leather directly, or should we introduce a "skin item" that will come from the butcher and then be transported to the tannery to make the leather. It will be one more step.. Hmmm, if we were to have more use for the skin item than just taking it directly to the the tannery it would be nice..
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#32
(10-04-2014, 11:16 PM)Rasmus Wrote: The thing here is that should we jump over the tannery and make the butcher produce the leather directly, or should we introduce a "skin item" that will come from the butcher and then be transported to the tannery to make the leather...
...if we were to have more use for the skin item than just taking it directly to the the tannery it would be nice..

I don't see an issue with the butcher making skins whilst chopping meat especially since a good butcher would have the knife skills to properly skin an animal. Perhaps the tanning rack could be attached to the butcher's station?

As far as other uses besides armor, leather could be a material requirement for certain beds, training dummies, a nicer chair (if happiness also is associated to comfort levels in the future), or as a requirement for the Mole Rat TacticBlack suggested in order to train them to be a beast of burden. The leather in that case would be used to make a storage satchel harness. I can think of many other ways leather could be used.
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#33
Rasmus Wrote:The thing here is that should we jump over the tannery and make the butcher produce the leather directly, or should we introduce a "skin item" that will come from the butcher and then be transported to the tannery to make the leather. It will be one more step.. Hmmm, if we were to have more use for the skin item than just taking it directly to the the tannery it would be nice..

The untanned skins could be used as an inferior version of leather, to make weaker armors and bags that are faster to make because they don't require a tannery+tanner and the extra time to process the skins into proper leather but also aren't as strong as their tanned counterparts.

How about this, you start out using the raw skins to make armor and other leather goods which are of lower quality then leather, and must research tanning to unlock the tannery building and the ability to produce leather, which would then be an upgrade from equipment like:

Hyde Shield
Hyde Armor
Hyde Sack,
etc

In other words, everything that can be made out of hides can also have a better (upgraded) version made out of leather, but not all leather products could be made out of untanned hides (skins).

Also, having the skins and leather be separate processes each handled by a different specialist at a different location serves to enhance the resource management/production chain side of the game, making it look less like another Dungeon Keeper clone and more like it's own original game concept. That will serve to further differentiate Dwelvers from being "just another Keeper clone" and set it up as it's own game in people's minds even more.

I remember back when you first started out on this project and were still posting about it in that thread over on the Dungeon Master forums and wanted to have a Dungeon Keeper type of setting combined with a The Settlers style of resource and production management management. Seems to me that having production chains and managing resources and production while building your evil empire and conquering the world was our original concept, so why shy away from it now? It's the combination of the 2 concepts that attracted me to Dwelvers in the first place.

Dungeon Keeper + The Settlers = Dungeon Settlers (ie Dwelvers) = Dwelvers Wink
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#34
This makes me think of WoW leather working...not a bad idea having different levels of leather for equipment though.
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#35
(11-04-2014, 09:15 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: The untanned skins could be used as an inferior version of leather, to make weaker armors and bags that are faster to make because they don't require a tannery+tanner and the extra time to process the skins into proper leather but also aren't as strong as their tanned counterparts.

How about this, you start out using the raw skins to make armor and other leather goods which are of lower quality then leather, and must research tanning to unlock the tannery building and the ability to produce leather, which would then be an upgrade from equipment like:

Hyde Shield
Hyde Armor
Hyde Sack,
etc

In other words, everything that can be made out of hides can also have a better (upgraded) version made out of leather, but not all leather products could be made out of untanned hides (skins).

Also, having the skins and leather be separate processes each handled by a different specialist at a different location serves to enhance the resource management/production chain side of the game, making it look less like another Dungeon Keeper clone and more like it's own original game concept. That will serve to further differentiate Dwelvers from being "just another Keeper clone" and set it up as it's own game in people's minds even more.

I remember back when you first started out on this project and were still posting about it in that thread over on the Dungeon Master forums and wanted to have a Dungeon Keeper type of setting combined with a The Settlers style of resource and production management management. Seems to me that having production chains and managing resources and production while building your evil empire and conquering the world was our original concept, so why shy away from it now? It's the combination of the 2 concepts that attracted me to Dwelvers in the first place.

Dungeon Keeper + The Settlers = Dungeon Settlers (ie Dwelvers) = Dwelvers Wink

I still have the same vision Wink But I have to balance the reality with game-play value. If I introduce an item that will just work as a middle stage between the animal and the leather there is no actual game-play use for it, the only reason it is there is to make the production chain look a little more real but add nothing to the game-play itself, it could even be annoying as the player will have an extra item filling the storage space which only purpose is to become leather..

I like the idea with hyde equipments, but I am worried about one thing. Now lets say that the hyde equipment is made out of the "skin item" that is the middle stage between the animal being butchered and the leather. So as soon as we have an tannery set up in the dungeon all the skin items will go to it to produce the leather, then when the player wants to produce the hyde equipment there will be no skin items left. This can probably be configured by the player so that the tanner don't make leather out of all the skins, but I do feel like it can overcomplicate things..

Lets see if I can clarify my thoughts a little better..

As I see it we have three levels of items.
- Item Level 1 (ex. water, antroots, flour, beer, fish, bread, leather, (farm animals), rope)
- Item Level 2 (ex. coal, iron, wood, iron ingots, rock)
- Item Level 3 (ex. equipments, cannonballs)

Item level 1 can be produced indefinitely.
Item level 2 is a limited resource.
Item level 3 is a final product that can't be modified.

There are some rules here, nothing from item level 2 should be used to create something in item level 1. This is because it will cause the limited resources to run out. (I made this mistake with the baking table and with the wood). So item level 1 items can only be found or produced in the dungeon at no cost, or created from other level 1 items.

Item level 2 can be spent to create other items that is item level 2 as well, but then it should at least have two level 2 items producing it, one item that is rarer than the other (like iron) and which primary is there as a middle step to produce this new item, and one item that is more common and used for more than one thing (like coal).

Item level 2 can also be spent to create level 3 items, but all these actions is made by the player when he build stuff or produce equipments.

Item level 3 can also be used to create other level 3 items or backtrack to a level 2 item (by disassembling it), but all these decisions should be made by the player.

The whole point of this is so that the production chain can keep on going without resources running out even if the player leaves the game running for hours without doing any actions in it. The goal is that I don't want the player to be forced to take actions to make the production chain stay alive, his actions should only be there to improve it.

Okay, back to the hyde idea..
According to these rules I can actually introduce a skin item, but that is only if I introduce another item that will be a part of the leather construction. This new item should be of item level 2, not unlimited so to speak. What this means is that leather will get pushed up to item level 2 and become an limited resources, while the skin will be in item level 1 as unlimited.

So, I am all for having the hyde equipment if anyone can come up with an new item that will be limited and work as a part of the leather construction.
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#36
What about this?

So starting off, the Butcher makes Hides (Lvl 1)
Hides can be refined to Skins (Lvl 2)
Skins can then be 'woven' together to make Leather (Lvl 3)
  • 2 Skins = 1 Light Leather
  • 5 Skins = 1 Medium Leather
  • 10 Skins = 1 Heavy Leather
  • 15 Skins + Magical Item (not discussed yet) = 1 Imbued Leather (For making special armors with bonus stats)
This way you could deconstruct the leather if you needed Skins, a level 2 item, or perhaps you could take Skins and Leather together to upgrade the leather you currently have.
  • 2 Light Leather + 1 Skin = Medium Leather
  • 1 Medium Leather + 5 Skins = Heavy Leather

... and so on

It may be easiest however just to be able to break them down to the Skins and then recombine for the leather you need. In order for this to work in a friendly way, the workbench would need to have a window to set the quantity of items to build.
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#37
That would actually work, but then we won't have any tannery, just a "workbench" or maybe something more specific for leather works. Maybe a tannery that also do Leather armours of all sorts? How do you feel about that SU? Wink
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#38
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning, tanning requires an acidic material known as tannin, this could be your level 2 resource, so to produce leather you need skins and tannin (so Skins + Tannin = Leather). Skins would be your level 1 resource, producible as long as there are animals/creatures with tough enough hides to produce a suitable leather. The Tannin could be a limited resource that has to be found, traded for or stolen or something.

OK, I just took another look at that article, and tannin comes from the bark of oak trees, so to get it you would need to harvest oak trees (provides wood and tannin) raid surface dwellers own stores for it, or trade with them for it. Converting skins to leather should be an irreversible process as the tannin is consumed in the process and the skins undergo a chemical level change which can't be undone, unlike forging iron into something where it can just be melted down and reforged as many times as one wants. Coal on the other hand, would get consumed and would not be recoverable, since it's been burned and all that's left of it is smoke and ashes.

So there would then be 2 different types of resource usage:

  1. consumption - item can't be recovered no matter what, it's been burned, consumed or otherwise destroyed in the process of using it to make another item
  2. Conversion - Item is changed in form and/or shape only, but can' be changed back again

For example, smelting iron ore into iron bars uses iron and coal, and neither can be recovered after words, once smelted the iron can't be converted back to the raw ore as all impurities have been removed to it's now permanently smelted and the coal has been burned so it is gone.

Forging the iron bars into an iron sword, would consume coal and iron bars, in this case the iron bars would be recoverable as the only change is reshaping the bar into a sword. if the iron is needed later, the sword could always be melted down to re-forge it into something else thus the iron bar could be recovered from the sword, but the coal couldn't be, it's been burned and destroyed in the process.

How about having certain items be tagged as fuel, and those items could be used interchangeably whenever a fire is needed as a heat source in production, such as forging, smelting and cooking. Thus, to smelt iron ore into iron bars or cook flour into bread, either coal or wood could be used as both burn easily and produce heat.
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#39
(13-04-2014, 08:30 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: ...tanning requires an acidic material known as tannin, this could be your level 2 resource, so to produce leather you need skins and tannin (so Skins + Tannin = Leather). Skins would be your level 1 resource...

...Converting skins to leather should be an irreversible process as the tannin is consumed in the process and the skins undergo a chemical level change which can't be undone...

But this sounds like tannin is a reagent and not the direct output of converting skins to leather so it wouldn't really be a level 2 resource. While converting skins to leather is irreversible, that wouldn't necessarily mean that Medium Leather couldn't be broken down because I was looking at this as the butcher would make the rough cut on the animal to get their hides, the hides would then be tanned making skins (but maybe a better word could be substituted) and then combining the skins together (for instance threading one layer of skin to another make Light Leather) will determine the strength/thickness of the leather. At that point those good be broken back down by removing the threads holding them together and you could use the skins to make whatever type of leather you would need.

I do like the idea of needing the resource tannin though. I know it comes from Oak, but maybe this is something that could come from any wood resource?
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#40
Mellow Tonin Wrote:I do like the idea of needing the resource tannin though. I know it comes from Oak, but maybe this is something that could come from any wood resource?

It could simply come from trees in general, but IMO it should not come from roots or any other subterranean wood source as this then creates a resource the player must go to the surface to get, one way or another.

Mellow Tonin Wrote:then combining the skins together (for instance threading one layer of skin to another make Light Leather) will determine the strength/thickness of the leather. At that point those good be broken back down by removing the threads holding them together and you could use the skins to make whatever type of leather you would need.
Sounds like a variation on composites... sort of a form of layering, by gluing or sewing layers together to make a thicker version of the leather/hide. That's definitely a good idea and could be a research-able upgrade to the basic leather armor. Certainly that could be undo-able by simply removing the glue or stitches to separate it back into the single pieces of leather.
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#41
(14-04-2014, 08:26 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: It could simply come from trees in general, but IMO it should not come from roots or any other subterranean wood source as this then creates a resource the player must go to the surface to get, one way or another.

Yeah, I like that it forces you to go above ground. Right now there are access points all over the map to get there so as long as that stays the same in the next release it shouldn't be overly difficult to get to the surface to get the reagent. I would suck if you had to dig really far across the map just to be able to make leather.
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#42
(14-04-2014, 04:17 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote:
(14-04-2014, 08:26 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: It could simply come from trees in general, but IMO it should not come from roots or any other subterranean wood source as this then creates a resource the player must go to the surface to get, one way or another.

Yeah, I like that it forces you to go above ground. Right now there are access points all over the map to get there so as long as that stays the same in the next release it shouldn't be overly difficult to get to the surface to get the reagent. I would suck if you had to dig really far across the map just to be able to make leather.

Yeah, we need something that is limited but still easy to come by. The leather armour should be one of the first to get armours in the game. It is not a long time left until I release the next version, I will probably make it so that the butcher creates the leather directly, but in later versions I can always insert this middle stage. Also, I think it will get easier to come up with a resource for creating the leather once we have started surrounding it with more items than it is now.
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#43
That's not a bad idea, and could be applied in other tasks too. Having a basic production chain to start of with will probably make it easier to expand on the chain later.
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#44
I agree. If you start with a simplified prod. chain, you can get the idea tested first, and if it works out, you can always expand on the production chain later.
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#45
I can't help feeling a little bit like a hypocrite when I am working against your ideas with the tannery and other buildings that will create more steps in the production chain and then introduce the sewing machine here:
http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php?tid=793

I need to say this because I think it is wrong of me to do so. Hope you all have patience with me, I am so focused in what I am doing right now that I easily get tunnel vision when new features are introduced, I will try to do better in the future!
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