Brainstorm Creature Mechanic - Creature production - Ideas needed!
#46
Plus I was also thinking that if you want the goods from the caravans but aren't ready to anger the surface worlders you could also trade with the caravans all peaceful-like... Big Grin Dodgy
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#47
Ritual Sacrifice For Spells!

This goes along the lines of sacrifice in #2; however, it wold be a price for a spell that could be called Mother's Ritual or Ritual of Defense etc... When you cast the spell the cost is 4 imps who go and stand at all 4 corners of the Dark Mother's room and create a defensive barrier that kills or significantly damages anything that comes into contact with a barrier that is created between the imps around the Mother. The duration of the barrier would be dependent on the the lowest health of the imps because it uses their life force to deal damage and once one is fully sacrificed the barrier would be gone and the ritual over and they all would die. I could also see making orcs into suicide or firebombs in a ritual manner too. This will need some serious testing to get the duration and damage right for balance purposes but it could be a last ditch to save the mother or something to help keep your mother alive in the early stages when you just started and accidentally stumble into enemies with no large amount of your own forces.
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#48
That's a nice and evil idea [Image: devil-smiley-029.gif]
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#49
So here is my quick two cents: Players should have to "unlock" different creature types (as an economic fixed cost) through constructing creature specific rooms, somewhat like DK. Those rooms can be made difficult to build: you can make the rooms/buildings require rare materials that must be discovered in the map. Cost to make creatures should be based on the food they consume, or if the creature is magical/extra strong then on some enchanting loot items you find. For undead: obviously we need a place of some kind here that works like DK: drag your victims there and they become skeletons or zombies, or, if they were magical creatures, they become liches. Equipment like armor and swords for orcs should be craftable and should become usable by creatures as they level up: Higher level creatures can use better equipment that must be made with stuff you dig up or conquer.

Edit: I was just thinking. If you want to do the meat grinder idea, you could make it part of the food chain. You could make "hero loaf" and "creature loaf" (kinds of meat loaf) that are then consumed by monsters and dark mother when spawning different types of creatures. You could control access to meat grinder versus graveyard/prison with door locks.

Edit 2: I keep thinking. I should alt-tab to dwelvers and stop, my brain hurts. So, you could also make the graveyard/prison for your own creatures, instead of for heros or npc monsters. Then you could only make undead versions of your own creations. Also, instead of direct sacrifice for creation, you use the corpses of fallen creatures you make. To make sacrifices an result of combat (or forced starvation ala the sims). Maybe create an sacrificial chamber room with different altars for different creatures instead of graveyard/prison for sacrifices. Graveyard for undead, prison for.... I am not sure yet. Maybe heros can go there and if you interrogate them, you get a part of the unexplored map exposed where there is good treasure.
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#50
Our team agreed that creatures will be made from other creatures you find on the map - if you catch one, put in the Prison Room than throw into the Dark Mother's maw you'll get access to many creatures of caught creature's specie.

Actually this is the only method to make creatures that we set, but still we don't know exactly what will unlock more of them and for which cost and we haven't set any additional ways of making creatures - which many were proposed here by community. We also set that each creature you want to make requires some Evil Points to spend we discuss now, but opinions were differ.

Maybe something different could be better to unlock more creatures (remember that could that be creatures only of the same specie) thanks to have different things we make in the game - like in DK that was, however... in Dwelvers, each room that can be placed on the ground costs nothing to place - Room "floorings" are free to place, but Room Buildings not and maybe depending on number of specific Room Buildings or not number, but on whole Room efficiency, gathered points from this place or something - we could unlock new creatures.
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#51
(30-01-2014, 07:19 PM)Mastergoose Wrote: I love the egg idea. The hatching time could be seen as the load time? Maybe put eggs in cue so that not everything will hatch at once?

As for the diversity on the maps, I had no idea that some maps will exclude certain creatures. If that is the case you can either work with the items suggestion Rasmus made. It seems well worked out with levels etc.

You could also spawn certain altars, ruins or worshiping places through the world with the "DNA-extract/artifact" of the species. Then even if you won't have the creatures in the map, you can still unlock them sometime through the game.
The problem with this however is that stronger creature DNA deposits will need some difficulty to find or access. Otherwise you might find it too early in the game. (Not sure if this is a problem if the build-cost is pretty high?)
I haven't given it a good thought how to accomplish this. Any suggestions?

I don't know exactly how DK handled this, but sacrificing to create skeletons would be awesome!

I like this egg idea too. Or the creation of a hatchery that has an incubator that is powered by coal like the Forge. The DM barfs up the eggs after you feed her the resources and the imp brings it to the incubator. Then it's a matter of time until the creature hatches. And there could be special creatures that only hatch under certain conditions IE a Goblin spawns when incubator is on regular rock; SwampThing only spawns when the incubator is built near water... etc. There could be lava pools too. For when you go really deep.
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#52
(15-02-2014, 07:41 PM)TacticBlack Wrote: Ritual Sacrifice For Spells!

This goes along the lines of sacrifice in #2; however, it wold be a price for a spell that could be called Mother's Ritual or Ritual of Defense etc... When you cast the spell the cost is 4 imps who go and stand at all 4 corners of the Dark Mother's room and create a defensive barrier that kills or significantly damages anything that comes into contact with a barrier that is created between the imps around the Mother. The duration of the barrier would be dependent on the the lowest health of the imps because it uses their life force to deal damage and once one is fully sacrificed the barrier would be gone and the ritual over and they all would die. I could also see making orcs into suicide or firebombs in a ritual manner too. This will need some serious testing to get the duration and damage right for balance purposes but it could be a last ditch to save the mother or something to help keep your mother alive in the early stages when you just started and accidentally stumble into enemies with no large amount of your own forces.

That is a nice idea for a spell, but the danger here with making weaker creatures suicide bomb them self to kill stronger creature could take all the players back to square one after each attack.

(16-02-2014, 03:43 PM)damiant Wrote: So here is my quick two cents: Players should have to "unlock" different creature types (as an economic fixed cost) through constructing creature specific rooms, somewhat like DK. Those rooms can be made difficult to build: you can make the rooms/buildings require rare materials that must be discovered in the map. Cost to make creatures should be based on the food they consume, or if the creature is magical/extra strong then on some enchanting loot items you find. For undead: obviously we need a place of some kind here that works like DK: drag your victims there and they become skeletons or zombies, or, if they were magical creatures, they become liches. Equipment like armor and swords for orcs should be craftable and should become usable by creatures as they level up: Higher level creatures can use better equipment that must be made with stuff you dig up or conquer.

Edit: I was just thinking. If you want to do the meat grinder idea, you could make it part of the food chain. You could make "hero loaf" and "creature loaf" (kinds of meat loaf) that are then consumed by monsters and dark mother when spawning different types of creatures. You could control access to meat grinder versus graveyard/prison with door locks.

Edit 2: I keep thinking. I should alt-tab to dwelvers and stop, my brain hurts. So, you could also make the graveyard/prison for your own creatures, instead of for heros or npc monsters. Then you could only make undead versions of your own creations. Also, instead of direct sacrifice for creation, you use the corpses of fallen creatures you make. To make sacrifices an result of combat (or forced starvation ala the sims). Maybe create an sacrificial chamber room with different altars for different creatures instead of graveyard/prison for sacrifices. Graveyard for undead, prison for.... I am not sure yet. Maybe heros can go there and if you interrogate them, you get a part of the unexplored map exposed where there is good treasure.

Like Sebt said, we have been thinking of the unlocking idea, why I am not that very fond of it is that it is to mainstream, a lot of games have buildings that unlocks creatures. The reason I got hang up on capturing enemy, drag him to prison room and feed him to the dark mother to create your own "clones" of this creature is because:
- It explains why the Dark Mother can create and spew up creatures.
- It encourage the player to leave his dungeon safe zone and start hunting down creatures.
- It will be more challenging as the player will have to do his best with what creatures he captures.
- The player would be over excited for every new creature encounter as the reward for capturing them is very big.

The graveyard prison idea is something we haven't gotten to yet, it is very possible that we are going down the same line as DK there.

(16-02-2014, 09:35 PM)TacticBlack Wrote: I like this egg idea too. Or the creation of a hatchery that has an incubator that is powered by coal like the Forge. The DM barfs up the eggs after you feed her the resources and the imp brings it to the incubator. Then it's a matter of time until the creature hatches. And there could be special creatures that only hatch under certain conditions IE a Goblin spawns when incubator is on regular rock; SwampThing only spawns when the incubator is built near water... etc. There could be lava pools too. For when you go really deep.

Hmm, it don't interfere with the current ideas and it could be a nice add-on Smile
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#53
As I've already said before, I'm definitely in favor of the egg idea. That forces planning and strategy in expanding your dungeon.
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#54
Well, it all depends on how far we will take the egg idea. I am all for the Dark Mother laying eggs.
- Should they hatch instantly?
- Should they hatch with a delay depending on the creature being hatched?
- Should they be transported to a hatchery where the imps take care of them?

The current dark mother design we are working on is to give her the ability to "move around" in the Dark Mother room, hatch eggs and tend to the eggs.
When I say "move around" I could be thinking more of "floating around" Tongue

You will all see soon Wink
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#55
I'm in favor of a delay, with a length depending on the creature type, the more powerful the creature, the longer the delay until it hatches.
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#56
(17-02-2014, 06:18 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: I'm in favor of a delay, with a length depending on the creature type, the more powerful the creature, the longer the delay until it hatches.

I agree, this could be modulated a number of ways. (Still going along the lines of the Hatchery/Incubator idea) If you have a vast availability of resources, you could spend those resources to reduce the time. (using something like the incubator perhaps?) I am not sure, but I feel like there might be problems with this expenditure method. I may have shot down my own idea too lol.

(Thinking along the lines of only a delay) I feel like it is too simple or non-unique -- it seems like there should be more -- the egg seems fragile and too vulnerable this way. Sure you could raise the health of the egg but it doesn't feel like it has the tongue and cheeky-ness to it, though it would depend on how it is executed. Maybe we should ask how the spawning could be best fit to the overall theme/atmosphere of the game? Though I think we all agree there should be a production time constraint of some kind on many of the units.

Perhaps there could be an ugly-ass eggsack on the DM that can only hold a limited number of eggs regardless of the creature they would hatch. She eats the resources and then the sack gets an egg. It might not even need to be connected to her, it could be stuck to the wall or something just like a spider eggsack.

Or there could be kangaroo-like imps or just imps with a sack in front who reach a certain level (of maturity but literally like level 6 or 7) who carry and incubate the eggs and look all fat and wobbly while the do it. (Think Willy Wonka BlueBerry Chick) or the imp could swallow the egg like the DM swallows resources and then pukes it out when it hatches -- preferably with a loud belching sound and a surprised look on their face Tongue . Sometimes the "pregnant" imps fall over and roll and they don't do any digging or mining. The imp could also eat more of a certain resource to speed up the production time (IE: copious amounts of beer!) I feel like that fits the theme best. What do you guys think?
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#57
(17-02-2014, 03:36 AM)Rasmus Wrote: Like Sebt said, we have been thinking of the unlocking idea, why I am not that very fond of it is that it is to mainstream, a lot of games have buildings that unlocks creatures. The reason I got hang up on capturing enemy, drag him to prison room and feed him to the dark mother to create your own "clones" of this creature is because:
- It explains why the Dark Mother can create and spew up creatures.
- It encourage the player to leave his dungeon safe zone and start hunting down creatures.
- It will be more challenging as the player will have to do his best with what creatures he captures.
- The player would be over excited for every new creature encounter as the reward for capturing them is very big.

- In playing it, I never questioned why the Dark Mother can puke out creatures! Some magics are better left unexplained.
- I agree that a player should earn the right to build better creatures through combat and exploration. The exact mechanism to do that is less important than the bigger goal of encouraging combat through some kind of major rewards.
- A player should have a non-combat way to make an army to rebuild his strength after losing a battle. If you require combat as a marginal cost (instead of fixed cost), then a single battle could be the end of the game because you lose and can't recover.

I am not sure if I understand the egg idea. Once I gather the requirements for building a creature, I would like it to come quickly in case I am in an emergency and need creatures to defend. Adding in a hatching time delay could be a problem: what if my DM is being attacked, how to defend it if all she drops is eggs that get targeted and killed by the NPCs before hatching?
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#58
I like the idea of eggs, but I only see them as after effect of ordering a creature to be made from Dark Mother. I mean when DM's make one a creature will show up as an egg-like blob. This way just made eggs can hatch in one place around Dark Mother. Creatures are made "ready to hatch", but need some time to get out of this blob.

The time of hatching should be short because the way of making creatures like we have now (catch - imprison - DM's lunch) is made also for players that are in trouble and could thanks to that quickly make more creatures and defend oneself (however creatures are born unarmed and with 1st lvl, but that's always something). When we order something we want it ASAP right? I don't like to wait 1 hour for my pizza especially if I'm in situation when I could eat a whole Cyclotaur with it's hooves. ];})
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#59
(17-02-2014, 06:18 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: I'm in favor of a delay, with a length depending on the creature type, the more powerful the creature, the longer the delay until it hatches.
I agree with this, in addition that this should happen in a hatchery of some kind.

(16-02-2014, 09:35 PM)TacticBlack Wrote: Or the creation of a hatchery that has an incubator that is powered by coal like the Forge.
I don't see coal to "heat" the eggs as a basic need. Maybe you can choose this option to speed the process up.

(16-02-2014, 09:35 PM)TacticBlack Wrote: And there could be special creatures that only hatch under certain conditions IE a Goblin spawns when incubator is on regular rock; SwampThing only spawns when the incubator is built near water... etc. There could be lava pools too. For when you go really deep.
This sounds interesting! It would also work well with (slowing) the unlocking of stronger creatures you found through some DNA/artifact.
Also, assuming lava will be reintroduced to the game, building hatcheries tactical near the lave might speed up the hatching permanent (the heating concept).

(17-02-2014, 02:11 PM)damiant Wrote: I am not sure if I understand the egg idea. Once I gather the requirements for building a creature, I would like it to come quickly in case I am in an emergency and need creatures to defend. Adding in a hatching time delay could be a problem: what if my DM is being attacked, how to defend it if all she drops is eggs that get targeted and killed by the NPCs before hatching?
I understand the problem that if you lose your army your entire dungeon might be annihilated. With some magic defense spells or smart/strong defensive buildings/traps you should be able to control this to some extent.
In short like SU said:
(17-02-2014, 05:41 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: As I've already said before, I'm definitely in favor of the egg idea. That forces planning and strategy in expanding your dungeon.
I disagree with being able to shit units out of thin air when there is some problem arising you couldn't handle. Assuming the game will eventually be well balanced and will give you enough opportunity to prepare for most things this, as in losing the game because of losing your army, will be a warning of future maps you will play. Do not venture too deep too fast or you will find more than you bargained for... Wink
Of course this depends on Rasmus point of view! I'm curious which direction he will take with all these options available!
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#60
I still think the Imps should swallow eggs that the DM spits out to become "pregnant" like in my most recent post on this thread. I think it follows the game atmosphere well. But getting the units quickly would be good. Though perhaps a "pregnant" imp would have "Mother" instincts and do some martial arts to kill attackers instead of having them be totally useless while carrying the egg. In this way, you create a unit that can fight but dont get the unit you need right away so you have to plan ahead. Challenging but you get some fighting units when you are in a jam.
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