My New Idea Equipment Mechanic - Equipable Items Development Tree
#1
Equipable Items Development Tree


Info
The idea is a development of something I posted in a deleted thread about now items could be developed along a tree or flowchart system, where each progressive advancement in an item represents an increase in its capabilities. The items would not be built at the lowest level and need to be "upgraded" this item tree would be more of a research tree in determining what the most effective items that can be built are, and also determine the maximum level of item a particular creature can use. So a tiny goblin, for example wouldn't be able to lift a knight's war hammer, but could pick up a rougue's dagger to use. So this mechainic would also require a modification of the creature data to include a maximum item level and allowable item types. So, for example, an imp could only be equipped with tools, since imps don't fight, but an orc could be equipped with a pickaxe, bow or sword.

Appearance
This could be shown in game as trees, with the most basic items at the left and the most advanced at the right. Items that have been researched already and are available for crafting could be shown in a different colour, and items that are not available for research yet could be ghosted out.

[Image: 12848780894_5a93433ea8_o.jpg]
Pic.1. 2 examples of how items development trees could look for edged weapons and ranged weapons.

Stats
Highlight: Sets an organized system to determining when items are available for development and who can use them.
Function: Sorts items by level of advancement, determines prerequisites for researching items and can set limits to how advanced an item a creature can use. For example a goblin could use any edged weapon up to a short sword, or hand axe, and any ranged weapon up to short bow, Lgt Crossbow or Javalin. Also, you could not research a Lgt Crossbow until you'd researched the Short Bow, and could not research the Short Bow until you had researched the Sling. The tree display could also be used as a method for selecting items for research at the appropriate building and items for crafting at the appropriate workstation.
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#2
Hmm I think this isa good system to make the gameplay a little bit longer. So they don't start with the best line you already said. So you can get reseach points from fighting against enemys and if you have some good luck maybe a 1/100 chance you find a item that isn't researched yet so it automaticly unlocks the item in the research tree.

You said that not everyone can wield the same things so maybe you can also do it with lvls like:
A orc can wield a short sword on lvl 1,
And on lvl 3 he can wield a long sword
Pyramid of Live
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#3
This is a really good idea Big Grin +2 to you Wink

The items we currently have in the game is the following:

Auto-equipable items depending on jobs
  • Pickaxe
  • Scythe
  • Hammer
  • Rolling pin
  • Unbaked bread

Equipable weapons and shields
  • Knights Hammer (two handed)
  • Orc Sword
  • Orc Axe
  • Knife

Equipable shields
  • Orc shield

Projectiles
  • Throwing rock
  • Cannonball
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#4
Quote:Knights Hammer (two handed)
That's another idea you just gave me. When a creature is equipping the largest weapon it can, it has to wield it 2-handed. Otherwise it could wield a shield, tool or secondary weapon in it's off hand.

Quote:You said that not everyone can wield the same things so maybe you can also do it with lvls like:
A orc can wield a short sword on lvl 1,
And on lvl 3 he can wield a long sword
My thinking on creature limits is more based on how large and heavy a weapon a creature is physically capable of using in battle. At it's limit it would have to use 2 hands to wield the weapon, otherwise it can wield it with just one hand (possibly, depends on how easily such a distinction could be implemented). What you propose is an interesting extra idea, level limits based on experience, an inexperienced level 1 orc can only wield relatively basic weapons (not strong enough and/or skilled enough to wield larger/heavier/more complex weapons yet, but could when better trained), so we'd then have a creature limit, and an experience limit, one would be fixed, the other would change as an individual gains experience. I think the 2 could work together in this way, to create extra benefits to training your creatures, and prevent something ridiculous like a tiny goblin wielding a huge, and heavy, knight's hammer.

IMO the Knight's hammer would fit under a blunt weapons, or bludgeoning weapons category. Another category I could see being added would be a pole-arm category. I'll post diagrams of the development trees for each of the item categories that will be included in the game. The actual names of the items are just suggestions and could be easily replaced with different names, but I will try to base them on historical records as much as possible, so the progression of their development should be pretty natural for the most part. For example, I proposed the Claymore as a late sword, which fits historically, as the Claymore was in use from about 1400 or 1700, in Scotland, and was a heavy sword meant to be a 2-handed sword.
Claymore

One exception is the Repeating Crossbow, which has early versions dating possibly as far back as 400 BC, in China, with enhancements being made up until about the 1400s. Yet it is showing up as a late weapon.
Repeating Crossbow
In light of the above info, I'll probably revise the ranged weapons tree to add more versions of the repeating crossbow, with the difference being in terms of magazine size (rate of fire - larger magazine = faster rate of fire) and stopping power (damage done per shot - heavier crossbow means more damage).
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#5
(02-03-2014, 10:37 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:
Rasmus Wrote:Knights Hammer (two handed)
That's another idea you just gave me. When a creature is equipping the largest weapon it can, it has to wield it 2-handed. Otherwise it could wield a shield, tool or secondary weapon in it's off hand.
and
(02-03-2014, 10:37 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: My thinking on creature limits is more based on how large and heavy a weapon a creature is physically capable of using in battle.
etc.

This sounds logic, if your creature is unable to carry a sword in one hand, maybe with two hands it could carry this weapon, so equipment items wouldn't be parted into class (one handed, two handed), but it depends on how heavy items your creature can carry.

I think the higher level is the creature the heavier equipment items it could carry and the number of wage that increase by level could depend on creature's body/specie/genetic predispositios, etc.

In the end the most bulky creature could wear almost everything, but! It depends on how much is skilled in using this or that weapon or what armor and weapon should wear to be the most effective in battle, what equipment set would raise the most chance to survive/win with enemy - so what creature will equip will depend only on computer calculations and available in equipment craft room stuff, this system would totally eliminate micromanagement, but of course player should then choose what to produce wisely to raise his/her creatures efficiency to the maximum of capabilities. +2 for you SU. Smile
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#6
(02-03-2014, 10:37 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:
Quote:Knights Hammer (two handed)
That's another idea you just gave me. When a creature is equipping the largest weapon it can, it has to wield it 2-handed. Otherwise it could wield a shield, tool or secondary weapon in it's off hand.
Added to Ideas & Game Features list.

Not sure about this, I imagine creatures that holds two handed weapons keep with two handed weapons. This can of course be changed later on, but remember that almost any animation they do is based on what kind of weapon they are holding. Enabling the knight equipping "no weapon" / "one handed weapons" / "two handed weapons" will multiply the number of animations one creature have by three.
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#7
Rasmus Wrote:Not sure about this, I imagine creatures that holds two handed weapons keep with two handed weapons. This can of course be changed later on, but remember that almost any animation they do is based on what kind of weapon they are holding. Enabling the knight equipping "no weapon" / "one handed weapons" / "two handed weapons" will multiply the number of animations one creature have by three.

True. However, there is an idea posted in the Item Modding topic by TacticBlack that could eliminate much of these problems, by using the PCG algorithms for modeling your creatures and animations. This could enable to you to utilize creature modeling and rendering in a way similar to Spore which has been the best I've seen in user customizable creature generation, in their Galactic Adventures add-on they also made it possible for any creature to be rendered with any item, provided that creature had the right appendage (ie graspers for a hand held item).

By doing this you should be able to save considerable time in coding new creatures and making modding them more user-friendly and inclusive with my idea of a creature creator tool filled with predesigned parts and textures. For me, it's usually the making my own graphics part that becomes a barrier to modding games. I can understand the coding part of modding, but get stuck on the need for new, custom graphics, so the more tools to automate that process, the more likely I'd be able to design tons of cool creatures for addition to Dwelvers.
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#8
Have a spore like creature generation would limit the variety of creature appearance, and it is extremely hard to make it look good. We would never be able to create creatures like the Rogue or the Cyclotaur from the same generation, their body structure is way to different.

Remember how many people there were that worked on Spore and 90% of that game is all about procedural creature generation. This is not anything that is easy to achieve for me unfortunately, I would need months just to get it working okay, and at that point it would probably not look that good.

There aren't that many games that uses these algorithms just because of these reasons.
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#9
I think Rasmus his animations are great and pretty good. The game has a lot of animations and I don't really need the animations for me it is a fun side effect of the game. I almost don't pay attention to some. It's fun to watch but the gameplay is still the important thing!
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#10
(03-03-2014, 06:38 PM)Rasmus Wrote: Have a spore like creature generation would limit the variety of creature appearance, and it is extremely hard to make it look good. We would never be able to create creatures like the Rogue or the Cyclotaur from the same generation, their body structure is way to different.

Remember how many people there were that worked on Spore and 90% of that game is all about procedural creature generation. This is not anything that is easy to achieve for me unfortunately, I would need months just to get it working okay, and at that point it would probably not look that good.

There aren't that many games that uses these algorithms just because of these reasons.

I see. I guess that's that then. My thoughts on the creature creator was not to limit ideas but to enable non 3d animators to be able to contribute ideas, while 3d animators could still do original graphics and animations, but if it would take too much work for you to do it then no point in hounding you about it. I'd rather get a workable game with fewer good features done right then an unworkable game with tons of poorly make features, or bankrupt you trying to do what a huge studio with a seemingly endless budget does and we all end up with nothing.
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#11
I'm not saying no Smile Just saying that it will take a lot of work and I am not familiar with the algorithms to get it working as it should, so I need to do some studying as well. This is something that I would actually find a lot of fun to do, and if I succeed in doing it, the editor could be merged with future games I would be making as well, so it would have a lot of potential Smile

But this is something that have to wait, if I started working on it now the update would be postpone several months Wink
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#12
Then by all means, wait. I don't want anything delaying that forthcoming update. If you did manage to do that, it could perfectly well function as an extra editor tool to produce the necessary data files that the game needs to add a new creature, as well as tools for the 3d graphically challenged to build images for their creature ideas. It could even be done as a post release goodie, after all, once you've got it released and making you money, you should have a budget available to reinvest in upgrading your game, and such a tool would be useful for future games as a character creator tool.
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