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Dwelvers Journal 2014.03.30 - Creature Inventory and Stats
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #1
2014.03.30 - Creature Inventory and Stats
Hi all


This journal will be a little bit shorter than the last one, maybe because I try to keep the journals a little bit more frequent now. For the last week I have been working more on the creature modding, it is an never ending circle it seems, the more I enable it the more I have too sidetrack and make extra features and mechanics to make the game as intuitive as possible.

With the possibility to equip the creatures I had to enable options so that the player could equip the creatures in game as well. I don't want the player to be force to choose equipment for every single creature he have, that would be to much micro management and would distract the player from the game's real goal.


Creature Inventory and Stats


I added a little extra option on the creature card, a "I" which would be for "Info" or "Inventory":

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/CreatureCard.png[/IMG]

A side note, I am not that satisfied with the creature card appearance and will probably redesign it at some point in the future.

So if the player press the "I" then he will enter this menu:

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/CreatureInventory.png[/IMG]

Here the player can see a more informative screen about the creature he has selected, and by just clicking the arrows or the creature images up top the player will be able to choose what ever creature he wants to check out with just a couple of mouse clicks. This menu will also be reachable from the bottom bar in the game (next to "sell", "rally flag", etc).

To the left in this image the player can see the creature statistics, there we have Name, Level and Attributes. We also have the creature needs, like hunger, rest and alcohol level, this frame is expandable depending on how many needs this creature has.

In the centre the creature in focus is the one that we are checking out, here the player can click the rotating arrows to be able to see him in all angles. Just like in the creature videos I presented last week.

To the right in this image we have the creature inventory, here we can see everything that this creature has equipped. And by clicking on one of the slots we will get an extra pop-up frame which looks like this:

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/CreatureEquipment.png[/IMG]

When clicking the right hand the player gets a couple of weapons to choose to equip the creature with. (I changed the creature as well to get more variations in the screenshot Wink)

These weapons to choose from also have a number connected to them, in this case both the axe and the sword has the number 2, this means that the player only has 2 axes and 2 swords in stock. If the player don't have a weapon in stock, then the weapon will not be visible here, the same goes for armours.

As I said earlier, I am not that fond of forcing the player to equip all creatures, this should happen automatically. I solved this by adding icons in the top right of every equipment slot as seen here:

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/AutoEquipment.png[/IMG]

The "Cross" means that this creature can't equip anything in this slot, most of these crosses will go away later on when I make more armour for the creatures.

The "A" means that the creature can auto equip this slot, this will make the creature always go searching for the best armour in stock and replace it with his current if the new armour is better.

But, as I don't want all the armours and weapons to be to linear in strength, it will be hard to just put a number on them saying that one armour or weapon is better than the other. Once we start introducing more armour and weapons some of them will have special attributes. Like boots with extra running speed, weapons with area damage, helmets with extra hp regen and so on. These weapons and armours will be pretty unique and therefore the player would maybe like to equip them on certain creatures, that is where the "M" = "Manual equip" comes in.

The player will be able to toggle between the "A" and "M" by simple clicking on it, once the "M" is active the creature will never remove the armour assigned to him.

As we will have a lot of armours and weapons in the future I am not that interested in mixing them up with the inventory space because it will just get too messy, right now it looks like this, but it will get much worse in the future:

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/ProductionMenuOverflow.png[/IMG]

Also, weapons can be way to big to be stored at the storage room as seen in this screenshot:

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/KnightsHammerStorageRoom.png[/IMG]


Upcoming Armoury Sneak-peak


Therefore I am looking towards a solution presented by Sebt here at the forum: http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php?tid=661

The metal works room will be renamed to armoury, and the player should be able to build weapon and armour racks to hold these items.

Another post made by SeriouslyUnserious on how to produce these armours and weapons caught my attention as well: http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php?tid=649

So by the next week I hope I have gotten the armoury up and running at some capacity Smile
(This post was last modified: 30-03-2014 05:03 PM by Rasmus.)
30-03-2014 05:00 PM
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Seriously Unserious Offline
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Post: #2
RE: 2014.03.30 - Creature Inventory and Stats
Oh, man, this is so Awesome!

Also, for equipping, some additional ideas I have are:
1- there should be some sort of size/weight limits on what types of weapons and armor a creature can equip. It wouldn't make sense for a tiny impanzee to be wielding a huge greatsword, even 2 handed, which it shouldn't even be able to lift, whereas a giant cyclotaur may even be able to wield such a weapon 1 handed, while an orc would need 2 hands to wield it.

My thinking here is the number of hands needed to use a weapon could be determined by the maximum weight of weapons a creature can use, when it gets close to this limit, the creature must use 2 hands to wield the weapon effectively (IE: can't use a shield or 2nd weapon). Same goes for the size limit, as it would be too awkward for a creature to wield an weapon that's near the largest size it can use with just 1 hand. For example, a long spear would be difficult for even an orc to use 1 handed, even though it can lift the weapon with 1 hand quite easily, because the weapon is so long it gets awkward to do anything with it unless a 2nd hand is used to help steady it. On the other hand, a very large creature, may be able to wield a spear one handed with ease.

Other weapons, like a bow, could be inherently 2 handed as it takes 1 hand to hold the bow, and the other to notch and shoot the arrow.

2- Creatures should be able to be organized into groups with an equipment set, so the auto equip can be made more dynamic. That should also help in dealing with different weapons or armor where 1 is not always better then another. For example, you could create 3 different equipment groups for orcs, one where the orcs are equipped with bows, leather armor and no shield with maybe a dagger as a back up weapon, another group could be equipped with swords, shields and the heaviest armor available. while a 3rd is equipped also with the heaviest armor available, but their weapons are the best available pole arm (ie spears, pikes, etc). This way you could have some control over what a creature equips itself with, by telling it which equipment set to use. These could even be named by the convention (*creature name* *user defined name*) eg: orc swordsman for the orcs using swords.

3- different equipping options:
some different options that could be added to the equipment screen so the user can set a creature/equipment category to use:
- "best available" (functions like the current autoequip) EG: Best sword, best shield, best helmet, best heavy armor.
- "specific item" (functions like manual equipping but the creature autoequips with a specific item (eg: always equips with Leather Armor, Longbow and Leather Helm and Leather Boots.

4- armor can be subdivided into 3 different categories: Light armor (such as leather, padded armor), Medium armor (such as studded armor, or armor that's a combination of metal and leather/padded armor) and Heavy armor (such as chainmail, Plate mail, full plate like late medieval knights wore, etc).
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30-03-2014 08:45 PM
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prof_ion Offline
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RE: 2014.03.30 - Creature Inventory and Stats
*starts frantically taking notes* I am gonna be SO busy! Big Grin
30-03-2014 08:52 PM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #4
RE: 2014.03.30 - Creature Inventory and Stats
(30-03-2014 08:45 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:  1- there should be some sort of size/weight limits on what types of weapons and armor a creature can equip. It wouldn't make sense for a tiny impanzee to be wielding a huge greatsword, even 2 handed, which it shouldn't even be able to lift, whereas a giant cyclotaur may even be able to wield such a weapon 1 handed, while an orc would need 2 hands to wield it.

My thinking here is the number of hands needed to use a weapon could be determined by the maximum weight of weapons a creature can use, when it gets close to this limit, the creature must use 2 hands to wield the weapon effectively (IE: can't use a shield or 2nd weapon). Same goes for the size limit, as it would be too awkward for a creature to wield an weapon that's near the largest size it can use with just 1 hand. For example, a long spear would be difficult for even an orc to use 1 handed, even though it can lift the weapon with 1 hand quite easily, because the weapon is so long it gets awkward to do anything with it unless a 2nd hand is used to help steady it. On the other hand, a very large creature, may be able to wield a spear one handed with ease.

Other weapons, like a bow, could be inherently 2 handed as it takes 1 hand to hold the bow, and the other to notch and shoot the arrow.

Well, I was thinking that the items should be categorized into:
- One handed
- Two handed
- Bows (May have to think this over if we want several types of bows like crossbow, maybe even a sling or something like that, then these would have to be categorized individually as well)
- Shields
- Spears (This one may be handled as a one handed, but the attack style is different so it should be categorized as well)
- Fist weapons (Every melee creature should be able to equip these as long as they have hands to fight with)

The we could of course add mighty in front of some of them to show that it is an extra large item that only some creatures can wear.

(30-03-2014 08:45 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:  2- Creatures should be able to be organized into groups with an equipment set, so the auto equip can be made more dynamic. That should also help in dealing with different weapons or armor where 1 is not always better then another. For example, you could create 3 different equipment groups for orcs, one where the orcs are equipped with bows, leather armor and no shield with maybe a dagger as a back up weapon, another group could be equipped with swords, shields and the heaviest armor available. while a 3rd is equipped also with the heaviest armor available, but their weapons are the best available pole arm (ie spears, pikes, etc). This way you could have some control over what a creature equips itself with, by telling it which equipment set to use. These could even be named by the convention (*creature name* *user defined name*) eg: orc swordsman for the orcs using swords.

I like this idea a lot Big Grin Hmm, so if I add an extra icon/droplist in the inventory where the player can set the creature groupid, then the player could prioritize the equipment of these groups in another menu. This would of course only affect those that have auto equip active. Maybe these groups also could be controlled individually with different rally flags? Smack two flies with one fly-smacker (or whatever the saying is Tongue).

(30-03-2014 08:45 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:  3- different equipping options:
some different options that could be added to the equipment screen so the user can set a creature/equipment category to use:
- "best available" (functions like the current autoequip) EG: Best sword, best shield, best helmet, best heavy armor.
- "specific item" (functions like manual equipping but the creature autoequips with a specific item (eg: always equips with Leather Armor, Longbow and Leather Helm and Leather Boots.

Hmm, I have been thinking on having it in different levels some how, so that the imps for example don't go and grab the best iron armour and leave the orcs naked. So one idea here is to have some sort of a prio list with the creatures, the simplest way is to have it so that certain creatures types gets the first choice of weapons and armours. So if we make a list, and just staple the creature types on top of each-other and put the cyclotaurs on top (meaning that they get first choice) and the imps in the bottom (meaning that they get last choice), then the player could just move the creature types up and down in the list if he wants too.

If the player wants a specific creature to have first or last choice I could add that option as well together with the "A" and "M".

You mentioned specific items, I could expand the list on the right of each creature type and just have some icons on what weapons and armour they should prefer.

I think I will have to visualize this, I will draw something together tonight Smile

(30-03-2014 08:45 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:  4- armor can be subdivided into 3 different categories: Light armor (such as leather, padded armor), Medium armor (such as studded armor, or armor that's a combination of metal and leather/padded armor) and Heavy armor (such as chainmail, Plate mail, full plate like late medieval knights wore, etc).

Sounds good, and certain creatures would only be able to wear certain armours. Or maybe all creatures could wear all armours, but for the impanzee to wear a heavy armour instead of a light armour could give a penalty such as slow walking speed and less accuracy.

(30-03-2014 08:52 PM)prof_ion Wrote:  *starts frantically taking notes* I am gonna be SO busy! Big Grin

Haha, yes you are Wink
31-03-2014 07:49 AM
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Mello Tonin Offline
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Post: #5
RE: 2014.03.30 - Creature Inventory and Stats
(31-03-2014 07:49 AM)Rasmus Wrote:  Hmm, I have been thinking on having it in different levels some how, so that the imps for example don't go and grab the best iron armour and leave the orcs naked. So one idea here is to have some sort of a prio list with the creatures, the simplest way is to have it so that certain creatures types gets the first choice of weapons and armours.

I would think that having a default equipment set per creature type could prevent this from happening. Since Imps aren't offensive they wouldn't need to necessarily pick up any armors by default, leaving the player responsible to adding some extra defense through armor if they choose to. For Orcs, they would default to the weapons they have now (or maybe a simple sword/axe and buckler) and some basic armor like leather armor. A wizard would want to equip cloth armor and maybe pick up a staff. Using the equipment manager, then you could make the modifications to equipment types if you wanted your Orc to use a staff for instance.

Being able to save an equipment profile for quick application would be a nice addition too. So if I had a set that had 2 2-handed swords and plate saved so I could cycle through to a Cyclotaur and change it quickly, or transfer that same scheme to an Orc without having to click on each equipment slot.
31-03-2014 02:53 PM
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Rasmus Offline
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RE: 2014.03.30 - Creature Inventory and Stats
Okay, I have sketched something up, this is a very simple and early prototype of how it may work (I didn't do the graphics for the body armour, legs and shoes, but hopefully the idea get through).

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/GroupAndTypeAutoEquipTemp.png[/IMG]

The idea here is that the player will be able to move creature groups and types up and down, this is because if two creature groups both have the same helmet type the player should be able to choose which creature group gets to equip the helmet first. The higher up a group or creature type is on the ladder the more priority it gets over the items it wants. Also, groups will always get equipment priority over creature types.

In a group I imagine that the player should be able to mix creature types, that is why the Cyclotaurs and some of the Orcs are in the same group.

Choosing a creature to a group should be done in the creature menu presented in the news, but I also imagine some quick choosing should be available from this menu, just be able to draw 5 orcs to a certain group for example without choosing specific orcs. Not sure how this should be done yet, but one thing at a time Smile

The graphics and type for the weapons so far I think should be:
- No weapons
- Fist weapons
- One handed weapons (Don't know if axes or swords should be separate or just be categorized as one-handed, it would certainly be simpler for the player if they all were one handed.)
- Two handed weapons (Equipping offhand not possible)
- Ranged weapons (Equipping offhand not possible)

The graphics and type for the offhand should be:
- No shield
- Shield

The graphics and type for the armour should be:
- Light armour (leather armour for example)
- Medium armour (chain mail for example)
- Heavy armour (plate armour for example)

As there will be different armours for all armour types, ex. several light armours, the armours should have a value connected to them saying how good this armour is to make it simpler for the autoequip to choose between them.

The priority between choosing armours and weapons should then be:
1. Manual equipment.
2. Auto equipment by creature group.
3. Auto equipment by creature type.

Then I was thinking about that there should be unique or special armours/weapons out there like boots with running speed or a axe with area damage. I don't think these should be auto equip-able, these will only be available by manual equipment. This should make the player value these items even more, and also the creatures because the player will be forced to choose what creature he wants to put these boots on.

@Mello:
Yeah, you got me thinking there, I hope this idea was something you had in mind. I don't know about equipment profiles yet, I have hard to make it fit into the whole idea Confused One thing that I haven't talked about so much yet is the instant manual equipment. I am not sure now when I think about it even more that if I want instant equipment as it defies the "rules of the game", nothing in the game is instant, every action the player do is just guidance so far, and I think the same should go for equipping creatures.

Hmm, I would like to hear some opinions about special items, and not having these included in auto-equipping, is this a good idea? I imagine that the player won't be able to find or make that many of these that it should be a problem with tedious creature equipping. Also, what abilities would you like to see on special items?
I actually got so excited about this I had to make an extra topic about it Tongue
http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php?tid=781

I have also started a topic about the grouping creatures together and using the rally flag on them: http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php?tid=782
01-04-2014 04:37 AM
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Mello Tonin Offline
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RE: 2014.03.30 - Creature Inventory and Stats
Looks good, so from the graphic you just posted with Creature Groups and Creature Types, would we be able to drag from Types to Groups to assign a creature to a group? Also, I'm thinking that having numbered groups may confuse some players when you refer to the hierarchy of who equips what. Someone may look at the number instead of top to bottom for determining what group has priority despite that seeming to be common sense. Maybe letters instead of numbers would make sure someone didn't mistake that?
01-04-2014 03:23 PM
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Seriously Unserious Offline
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RE: 2014.03.30 - Creature Inventory and Stats
http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php?tid=657

Quote:I have also started a topic about the grouping creatures together and using the rally flag on them: http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php?tid=782

Awesome idea, but I think you forgot about this: Game Mechanic - Assign Squads which already covers that. Tongue

I'd like to see equipment profiles and creature groups (ie squads) be handled separately so it's possible to create squads with a variety of different creatures and equipment sets. If a squad consists of nothing but archers, for example it would be very vulnerable unless another squad, made of of some sort of malee equipment could also be sent to the same place, which would create too much micromanagement in a game not designed to support that level of micromanagement, so a squad would need to have a balanced set of equipment and skills on its own.

So a squad could be assembled by setting how many members of each equipment profile you want in that squad and the game would automatically assign the right number as soon as their available, and any that can't be assigned right away would be handled as vacant slots waiting to be filled, handled by some sort of queue system. Individual creatures should also be able to be assigned to a squad, for cases where you want an experienced member to build the squad around or a creature with special equipment, such as a unique weapon or armor.

Quote:The graphics and type for the offhand should be:
- No shield
- Shield
How doable would it be to add a 2nd weapon to the offhand, so a creature could fight with, eg, 2 swords, with some sort of extra limitation on what type of weapon could go there, such as it has to be a lighter, smaller weapon then the primary weapon, and the primary weapon has to be 1-handed.

Quote:The graphics and type for the weapons so far I think should be:
- No weapons
- Fist weapons
- One handed weapons (Don't know if axes or swords should be separate or just be categorized as one-handed, it would certainly be simpler for the player if they all were one handed.)
- Two handed weapons (Equipping offhand not possible)
- Ranged weapons (Equipping offhand not possible)

How hard would it be to code a weight for each weapon, and have each creature have a max_weight stat for wielding a weapon 1-handed and a 2nd max_weight stat for wielding a weapon 2-handed, so a 2-handed weapon for 1 creature could be a 1-handed weapon for another.

EG: An impanzee could use a dagger, knife or shortsword 1-haneded, but if you wanted to equip them with a broadsword, they would need 2-hands to wield it (treat the broadsword as a 2-handed weapon for impanzees), and counldn't even lift a greatsword, which an orc could wield 2-handed and a cyclotar could use 1-handed.

2-handed weapons could be a special class of very large weapons like halbreds, great axes and ranged weapons that can't be used 1-handed regardless of weight.

Anyways I love your ideas and direction the game's going in. +2 Ras.
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01-04-2014 11:17 PM
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Rasmus Offline
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Post: #9
RE: 2014.03.30 - Creature Inventory and Stats
(01-04-2014 03:23 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote:  Looks good, so from the graphic you just posted with Creature Groups and Creature Types, would we be able to drag from Types to Groups to assign a creature to a group? Also, I'm thinking that having numbered groups may confuse some players when you refer to the hierarchy of who equips what. Someone may look at the number instead of top to bottom for determining what group has priority despite that seeming to be common sense. Maybe letters instead of numbers would make sure someone didn't mistake that?

Not sure how I will do the creature assigning to groups, dragging and dropping would be the most intuitive I think, but I still need to figure out a way to do it fast, the player wouldn't like to drag and drop one creature at a time. I like the idea of having letters for the groups, but the reason I choosed numbers is because I want the number to also function like a keyboard shortcut, having letters as shortcuts can be a little confusing. Maybe I can just make the number with a different design/font and add some graphical art surrounding them so that the look more "permanent".

(01-04-2014 11:17 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:  http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php?tid=657

Awesome idea, but I think you forgot about this: Game Mechanic - Assign Squads which already covers that. Tongue

I know, sorry, I missed that one Sad

(01-04-2014 11:17 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:  I'd like to see equipment profiles and creature groups (ie squads) be handled separately so it's possible to create squads with a variety of different creatures and equipment sets. If a squad consists of nothing but archers, for example it would be very vulnerable unless another squad, made of of some sort of malee equipment could also be sent to the same place, which would create too much micromanagement in a game not designed to support that level of micromanagement, so a squad would need to have a balanced set of equipment and skills on its own.

So a squad could be assembled by setting how many members of each equipment profile you want in that squad and the game would automatically assign the right number as soon as their available, and any that can't be assigned right away would be handled as vacant slots waiting to be filled, handled by some sort of queue system. Individual creatures should also be able to be assigned to a squad, for cases where you want an experienced member to build the squad around or a creature with special equipment, such as a unique weapon or armor.

Answered that one over here: http://forum.dwelvers.com/showthread.php...52#pid6052

(01-04-2014 11:17 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:  How doable would it be to add a 2nd weapon to the offhand, so a creature could fight with, eg, 2 swords, with some sort of extra limitation on what type of weapon could go there, such as it has to be a lighter, smaller weapon then the primary weapon, and the primary weapon has to be 1-handed.

Theoretically it is very easy, but the reason I am avoiding this for now is because of the number of animations I would have to implement with the creatures holding different weapons, I have posted the current situation below. But this is something I would really like to see in the future, so I will get back to it Smile

(01-04-2014 11:17 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:  How hard would it be to code a weight for each weapon, and have each creature have a max_weight stat for wielding a weapon 1-handed and a 2nd max_weight stat for wielding a weapon 2-handed, so a 2-handed weapon for 1 creature could be a 1-handed weapon for another.

EG: An impanzee could use a dagger, knife or shortsword 1-haneded, but if you wanted to equip them with a broadsword, they would need 2-hands to wield it (treat the broadsword as a 2-handed weapon for impanzees), and counldn't even lift a greatsword, which an orc could wield 2-handed and a cyclotar could use 1-handed.

2-handed weapons could be a special class of very large weapons like halbreds, great axes and ranged weapons that can't be used 1-handed regardless of weight.

This wouldn't be hard at all, it is just an extra weight value connected to the item, and an extra max_weight stat for the creature and compare these with each other. But I am not that fond of having the weights of the weapon deciding if a creature can wield it or not. I prefer having a weapon type decide whether an creature can use it. The reason is that it is simpler for the player to know what creatures can use a specific weapon by just looking at the weapon type, and weight number is much harder to remember. Another reason is that the animations for the creatures are depending on what they can equip, the standing/walking/running/attacking animation differs depending on if the creature has a bow/one handed/two handed/fist weapon equipped, and this forces me to do the animations for all of them just in case someone invents an light weighted two handed weapon.
When I think about it a two handed weapon is mostly two handed because of its weight, we can almost say that all two-handed weapons would be in a specific weight range.
To compromise here I could make it so that we have "short one handed weapons" and "great two handed weapons", one in each direction, so that the impanzee can only hold "short one handed weapon", and the Cyclotaurs are the only creature strong enough to wield a "great two handed weapon".

So all creatures would then have the possibility to wear these weapons:
- No weapon (Punching animation)
- Fist weapon (Punching animation)
- Dagger (One handed swinging animation)
- Short one handed (One handed swinging animation)
- One handed (One handed swinging animation)
- Two handed (Two handed swinging animation)
- Great two handed (Two handed swinging animation)
- Throwing (Throwing animation)
- Sling (Throwing animation)
- Bow (Bow shooting animation)
- Crossbow (Crossbow shooting animation)

So here we have 6 different attacking animations for 6 different weapon types. Walking and standing animations with the weapons equipped could probably go down to 3 different animations.

(01-04-2014 11:17 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote:  Anyways I love your ideas and direction the game's going in. +2 Ras.

Thank you mr. SU Big Grin
02-04-2014 10:00 AM
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