Poll: Digging is...
This poll is closed.
...inevitable to get all those precious minerals as fast as we can and flaten the construction zones.
71.43%
5 71.43%
...and insult to mother nature, and should be kept to a minimum, ¡you barbaric plague!
28.57%
2 28.57%
Total 7 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Brainstorm Construction Mechanic - Bulldozing the landscape or respecting mother nature?
#1
(21-05-2014, 03:43 PM)Mello Tonin Wrote: [...] and then I hack out 5x5 areas around the DM all the way down to the impenetrable rock. Then I go and back fill the whole thing.

This comment got me thinking that I do the exact same thing, and while my OCD likes to see neatly planed rooms and storage shelves bursting with stuff, this makes the game really easy and I end up starting over quite often.

But what would happen if building walls consume resources? Perhaps 1 wood for the supports?

One would be limited in his excavation frenzy early on, until we can get to the surface and get plenty of wood. This would make us explore more to find naturally occurring caves with exposed gold and iron, for instance. Or defining specific areas to work as quarries.

Another possibility which is harder to implement would be having underground caves. What I mean by this is that an imp could be digging a floor tile and suddenly encounters an empty cave, falling to his death. This would probably require a complete rewrite of several aspects of the terrain generation.
Perhaps there could be another type of terrain besides gravity falling dirt: The rock. The rock could either be buried (completely surrounded by dirt on all directions) or be the ceiling of an empty cave.

This way, when encountering a rock with resources imbued in them, you'd have to decide if you take the chance to dig it straight down (risking a deadly fall) or from the side (which would require more digging/defacing of the terrain)


What do you guys think? Should the game impose the challenge of exploring onto the players or leave it up to the play style of the gamer and risk a couple of "this game is too easy" bad reviews?
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#2
(21-05-2014, 08:32 PM)Excess Wrote: Another possibility which is harder to implement would be having underground caves. What I mean by this is that an imp could be digging a floor tile and suddenly encounters an empty cave, falling to his death. This would probably require a complete rewrite of several aspects of the terrain generation.

This is an interesting idea, but it would be difficult to implement because of how the tiles work. The problem would be not so much the opening into a hole because you wouldn't have to worry about tiles above you falling in to fill the empty space, but the empty space around the column you just dug out. It is by design that tiles drop to occupy space that has been dug out which you can't really get away from. Now you could have a column that was populated with special tiles that do occupy a space, but are designed to open up to the base once you dig down to the top tile with this designation; essentially a hole that isn't a hole. I don't see this being worth the time to code to add to the game. A trap that opens into a Death Hole on the other hand; winner!

As far as the resources go, I'm sure this will be redesigned to be more in balance, and it wouldn't be absurd to believe we would need resources to rebuild walls. That's how it used to be, but the dirt resource was removed from the game as it was clogging up store rooms, and wasn't useful for anything besides Imp and Wall creation. Stone would be a perfect resource for Wall construction as there is a bunch of it, and it is a resource that will be used for many creations.
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#3
Quote:But what would happen if building walls consume resources? Perhaps 1 wood for the supports?

Hi,
To build a wall you need 1 stone (rock) you can try, i always dig deeper and rebuild after and i've noticed if i'am out of rock no wall can be construct without rock.
So it's a bug or it's already in mecanic system you should try and see by yourself.
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#4
if you're playing version 6.x no resource is required to build walls. Like Mellow said, walls used to require dirt, which was removed so the walls just fell to being free by default. Now that there is a way of getting rid of it (feeding it to the dark mother) dirt could be re-introduced without the old filling up the store rooms with no way to use it problem, or stone could be used for wall building now.
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#5
I vote for digging. I like to drop whole walls down from ground level up, and just keep marching my imps forward. Soft dirt is easy to dig.
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#6
What gives so much good reviews and popularity for DK or Minecraft is ability to do whatever you want in many ways with environment and it's elements - same Dwelvers world (at least underworld) will be maximum "digable" and environment elements will be used for different things, mainly we talk about resources.

Me and Rasmus discussed how Dwelvers would be so much modifiable. ATM Rasmus stayed with not being able to make tunnels, but it's not said this won't be changed.

Also there's need to connect somehow surface world with underworld, in real-time. I found in ANNO 2070 very interesting system of transition between two worlds (underwater and surface) that we could make similar to it maybe. Take a look on this, just scroll up or down or use quick hotkey (skip to 53s):




What's more maybe this thread will inspire you, there had been posted some nice ideas: Game Mechanic - Support Beams & Secret Rooms.

I thought also that some of rocks would require better equipment like reinforced pickaxe or maybe special explosive materials or magic/technology to dig them out (examples of these rocks: Item - Managnetite & Basalt).

Hmm and I though that to reinforce wall or if not, so to built wall you could use a resource that drops from each wall you've dug - well this way the first rule of thermodynamics will be saved, but for resources, so we won't be able to make anything from nothing like bankers make money in our real world... Wink
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#7
That game looks like fun Sebt. I still play the Anno 1503 game, but I lost interest in the series when 1701 was released. When transitioning between the surface and underground worlds, I figured that we would just be making use of the Knight portals that currently exist. We could have a button as described in this thread posting, that once you explored to one of these portals and claim it, the button would become active and you could then just click on it to transition between the two.

Something which would make this more interesting would be that you would also have to maintain control of the portal in order to use it. This means not only do you have to protect the underworld area around the portal, but also the surface area. This would present an added challenge and would be necessary to maintain in order to receive surface materials.

Along with the messaging system, the portal could blink indicating that the surface area was under attack and as such you would need to send reinforcements immediately. Having a 'Guard Station' near the portal will be a smart strategy to ensure you maintain control and can answer an attack quickly, while keeping your supply lines safe.
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#8
I love ANNO games since playing 1602 yeaaaaarss ago. Smile

Yes, we will still use portals, through which we could walk on surface. I described just the simple mechanism of screen transition between one and two world (like in ANNO 2070) - by using mouse scroll or I.e. Alt + arrows or I.e. F8 button (for those who don't like clicking like me :p)
or
by clicking the button (do you see it placed in the middle of compass? BTW + 1 for you) + arrows that could be placed around the compass.

The idea of unlocking possibility to transition only when you get first portal is great + 1. The same mechanism I saw in Civilization: Call to Power I when you built first space ship and you can enter the space zone above the earth and find wormhole and real aliens...

Guard Stations is great idea - + 1. Smile
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#9
Yeah I know what you mean about clicking on stuff. It would be cool to have like a Shift + mousewheel option for this, Ctrl + mousewheel for cycling through Spells, and Alt + mousewheel for cycling through Rally Flags. And, since it has been brought up before that there are those who still don't have mice with scroll wheels, 'Page Up' and 'Page Down' would be a good secondary option for the mousewheel for those folks.

Edit: Almost forgot, SU really should get credit for the Guard Post so points to him; I just expanded on it.
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#10
He already get, you've deserved too for this idea expansion, hope you don't mind. Smile

For Rally Flags possible that ALT will be less hazardous then CTRL. Will see what Rasmus invent for keys, it seems we'll have them many, hopefully we would have enough keys on keyboard.. Would be good idea to collect all already existing, show to public (will do after 0.7 release) and try to combine with new we're and we will thinking of among community.
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#11
(23-05-2014, 02:59 PM)Sebt Wrote: ATM Rasmus stayed with not being able to make tunnels, but it's not said this won't be changed.
Tunnels would be cool, but that makes the game very different strategy-wise. I think the implementation is quite possible if he is using a 3D spatial ADT (like octree or kdTree) but I don't know if he is just using a 2D array of lists or something homegrown might make it difficult. There are some simplifying assumptions one can make with the current mechanic.

The problem comes in many different things like is it a built thing or do you actually bore through, how does it affect pathfinders, and how do you handle different digging issues (like making staircases).

The idea has some serious ramifications that I haven't thought much about.

-D
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#12
Oh I don't mind. Tongue It will be interesting to see where things go from here with key bindings.
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#13
(23-05-2014, 10:00 PM)Sebt Wrote: Would be good idea to collect all already existing, show to public (will do after 0.7 release) and try to combine with new we're and we will thinking of among community.
(24-05-2014, 12:28 AM)Mello Tonin Wrote: It will be interesting to see where things go from here with key bindings.

I think that Rasmus has a great opportunity here: Instead of having to test and debate which would be the best key bindings, he should give us some precarious way of assign them ourselves (like editing an .ini or .txt file) and then we all report our findings. It's one thing to speculate in here which key should be which action and another completely different is testing them live.
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#14
I agree. The best way to find out what keybindings are the best is to use them in the game itself and see which ones feel the most natural to use. Ultimately though, the keybindings should be configurable via an in-game menu.

@Mellow: I love that idea for using the guard posts, that's exactly the sort of thing I suggested them for. Otherwise guards will just wander around anywhere and you could end up being under attack with all your warriors at the other end of the dungeon from where the attack is coming from, such as an army of knights and soldiers pouring into a portal near your dark mother with nobody nearby to fend them off otherwise.

EDIT: Another thing I meant to bring up is that if tunneling is added later on, a great, simple way to deal with the 3D dungeons would be to have a "level selector" button where you could move the view up/down 1 level, with all levels above the current level being filtered out of the view, in a similar way to the house floor selector in The Sims 2. So you could see through any openings in the floor (such as a pit) to the floor below, but you can't see the floor above (to avoid getting your view blocked).
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#15
(25-05-2014, 06:33 PM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: EDIT: Another thing I meant to bring up is that if tunneling is added later on, a great, simple way to deal with the 3D dungeons would be to have a "level selector" button where you could move the view up/down 1 level, with all levels above the current level being filtered out of the view, in a similar way to the house floor selector in The Sims 2. So you could see through any openings in the floor (such as a pit) to the floor below, but you can't see the floor above (to avoid getting your view blocked).

Sounds interesting, this way we could also make transition between surface and underworld spaces very smoothly. Even make surface world one block higher from the highest underworld block. IMO for this idea each layer/level should be quite high so player wouldn't be annoyed with scrolling too far.

Also I rather would like to keep the view for everything like it is now too - that could be annoying seeing one layer that hides other then one layer that looks completely different and it's hard to see any move or fights on different layers at one point - I found that system exist in Game of Dwarves which people are not so happy with this solution. So what about... connecting these two views? I mean to safe that we can see everything open like now, but when scrolling down mouse and being only two layers close to tunnel we could see its outline shapes and of everything that moves there and when we scroll to exact tunnel layer we could see it in full view. If there would be two layers higher or lower than tunnel we're looking at actually we could see outlines of their items, surrounding.

Additionally, we could even see the deepest level full of lava, just for fun if that won't eat to much memory. Smile
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