New Feature! Goods Mechanic - New trading system and further its development
#1
So before I went away over the weekend I was working on a new trading system. At first I just wanted to be able to trade shards, but then I expanded it a little so that it is possible to trade the most basic items as well. Equipments etc. is not included in this trading system. I was thinking that if a merchant comes by and if we include that feature into the game the trading system could increase during this period of time.

This is a test version I will introduce in the 0.7e version, it may upset the balance of the game and therefore it is very important to get your feedback on it.

[IMG]replace_photbucket_link/TradingSystem.jpg[/IMG]

To the left is the items the player have in stock, and to the right is the items available for buying. Below each item there is a number, this number defines the value of each item. On the buying side these items has twice the value, meaning that there is a "tax cost" of 50% when trading.

Atm the trading is instantaneously and always available, this is not anything I am very pleased with. I have been thinking about maybe being able to build a trading room to clarify why it works as it does. And different buildings in this room could expand the trading possibilities.

So what do you think?
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#2
I have a really fond memory of Ultima Underworld, and one thing that I really liked about it is that trading with random NPCs didn't have set values for the goods. The NPCs showed what they wanted to get rid of, and you made an offer. You chose what you wanted from them, and offered something in return. Only if the NPC liked your offer the transaction would be made.
Also, each creature had a preference. Humans liked shiny, valuable stuff, while lizardmen liked food more.

I haven't found a game yet that employs something similar, and it's a shame, because I thought it was really clever and fun to negotiate. You could offend, bribe and cheat while doing this also.

Perhaps an orc tradesman would give you more things in exchange of gold than a fishmen tradesman would do. Or a cyclotaur tradesman could have a monopoly over a specific type of shard, which he'll only trade if you have a cyclotaur yourself in your army.
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#3
I like your ideas, Excess. This trade system would fit in with an old suggestion of mine, the Caravan, which could bring up this trade menu if clicked on and the option "Trade" were chosen. The other option when encountering a caravan would be to attack it and just take what you want, but this should also rigger increased raids from the surface dwellers as the knights would tend to get mad when someone starts killing and stealing from their subjects and the thieves see a successful raid as an opportunity to raid you back. If you trade peacefully, the knights will tend to care less about your presence and will reduce their attacks on your dungeons, after all, they get to tax the caravan's profits on trading with you. The more you trade peacefully, the more caravans could tend to appear on the map, and the richer they will become. The greedy merchants want to profit off of the evil dark overloard and also the surface world becomes a little more wealthy from all those rare (to the surface) underworld items passing through the area. When raiding the caravans (and other surface buildings), the surface becomes less wealthy and fewer, smaller and poorer caravans will show up. It's just not profitable to trade with a land who's valuables have been stolen and where you could get killed and your valuables stolen, so the caravans would go elsewhere.

This would create strategy elements, like, do you just go on a rampage and take everything you want and kill anyone that gets in the way (or just because they were there and easy to kill and your evil after all), making the lands less prosperous, and the locals more hostile to you, or do you trade peacefully and bid your time, waiting for the fruit to ripen before you pluck it. Of course, the more prosperous the serface dwellers are, the better they can defend themselves and the harder that ripe fruit will be to take. Then again, as time passes, you have the opportunity to build your own forces up too. So much to consider, so many different ways to play.
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#4
I like Excess idea, it reminds me a little trade system in Galaxy on Fire games where depending in which system you are you can sell something for even doubled price and something that wouldn't be very viable at all. Example:
[Image: food.jpg]

I also would like to suggest another things:
- On selling side it not only shows number of item you would like to sell, but also sum of shards you would get from selling items.
- The same for buying side.
- You mentioned in last post wins you would discard option for making creatures from DM, but shards could be treated as tablets/stones/runes that can give life, so from them you're making creatures that are known by DM after you put some to her earlier (creatures blueprints).
- Maybe there could appear merchant that would sell/buy creatures too?

If this would be possible to sell/buy anything that would be great, even resources, but regarding to whole idea:
I don't know if this wouldn't make game too easy, the most funny thing in DK or Minecraft was that nobody helped you, always markets are making gameplay too easy.
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#5
The caravan systeme + new one can be great, maybe usable only when you find "them" and trad with them like a real "shop" radomly generated on the world map.
Btw the game is comming more and more better Big Grin.
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#6
(22-06-2014, 02:26 AM)Excess Wrote: I have a really fond memory of Ultima Underworld, and one thing that I really liked about it is that trading with random NPCs didn't have set values for the goods. The NPCs showed what they wanted to get rid of, and you made an offer. You chose what you wanted from them, and offered something in return. Only if the NPC liked your offer the transaction would be made.
Also, each creature had a preference. Humans liked shiny, valuable stuff, while lizardmen liked food more.

I really like that idea, but for a starter I think we need to start with something more basic, it would take to long implementing creatures with trading skills and more. What if we begun with just having the player build trading rooms where different creatures could visit and trade with the player. Then when it get more and more rooted into the game we could expand it and introduce npcConfused that could do the same.

(22-06-2014, 06:06 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: I like your ideas, Excess. This trade system would fit in with an old suggestion of mine, the Caravan, which could bring up this trade menu if clicked on and the option "Trade" were chosen. The other option when encountering a caravan would be to attack it and just take what you want, but this should also rigger increased raids from the surface dwellers as the knights would tend to get mad when someone starts killing and stealing from their subjects and the thieves see a successful raid as an opportunity to raid you back. If you trade peacefully, the knights will tend to care less about your presence and will reduce their attacks on your dungeons, after all, they get to tax the caravan's profits on trading with you. The more you trade peacefully, the more caravans could tend to appear on the map, and the richer they will become. The greedy merchants want to profit off of the evil dark overloard and also the surface world becomes a little more wealthy from all those rare (to the surface) underworld items passing through the area. When raiding the caravans (and other surface buildings), the surface becomes less wealthy and fewer, smaller and poorer caravans will show up. It's just not profitable to trade with a land who's valuables have been stolen and where you could get killed and your valuables stolen, so the caravans would go elsewhere.

I do remember this idea. It is great Smile But I think we need to start in a smaller scale.

(22-06-2014, 12:16 PM)Sebt Wrote: I also would like to suggest another things:
- On selling side it not only shows number of item you would like to sell, but also sum of shards you would get from selling items.
- The same for buying side.
- You mentioned in last post wins you would discard option for making creatures from DM, but shards could be treated as tablets/stones/runes that can give life, so from them you're making creatures that are known by DM after you put some to her earlier (creatures blueprints).
- Maybe there could appear merchant that would sell/buy creatures too?

If this would be possible to sell/buy anything that would be great, even resources, but regarding to whole idea:
I don't know if this wouldn't make game too easy, the most funny thing in DK or Minecraft was that nobody helped you, always markets are making gameplay too easy.

The buying side should have the numbers too, I totally agree! Yeah, this is what worries me, that it will be too easy. But this is something we can start with just testing out. Later on we could be forced to discard it or maybe just solve it by increasing the trading taxes.

(22-06-2014, 01:10 PM)Club Sandbox Wrote: The caravan systeme + new one can be great, maybe usable only when you find "them" and trad with them like a real "shop" radomly generated on the world map.
Btw the game is comming more and more better Big Grin.

Hmm, so maybe.. Instead of meeting npcConfused we could have rooms generated in the dungeon that the player can trade with Smile
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#7
From my experience with Towns, how we did it is that as you build a trading zone (Market Place) different types of caravans start coming at random intervals with random piece of equipment, but not totally random as each caravan had a theme (Land Boat caravn carried mostly Wood based items etc..) and unique weapons/items/creatures that can't be crafted. when it arrives, you can open a panel that lets you buy his items and sell yours and the price is dependent on a multiplier that is unique to that caravan.

The pro's in that system is that its semi randomized and slightly interesting. the cons, however, is that you cant have automated trading which suits a strategy game far better, since you can't leave buy/sell orders to be fulfilled by the townies when the caravan comes. another thing is that the price was pretty much on the same level for every caravan, because we didn't simulate a "global" market with shifting prices based on the supply vs demand. this caused bone farming, flower farming and dirt selling to be a very viable financial venue.

Link to Towns Caravan's wiki
http://towns.gamepedia.com/Caravan

What i suggest for Dwelvers, is to mix the two. have special merchants that come to the dungeon with randomized loot to sell and which will have different buy demands as well, have the prices change based on a fake global supply and demand metric that would be mostly (but not solely) affected by your trading history, and offer the player the option of sending his own merchant to "far away" dungeons to trade. the merchant you control, will serve as the automatic trading system, where as he has limited cargo space, will go and sell/buy ordinary items at an automated trading schedule (say, you send him to Dungeon X which located far far far away to buy 20 gold, the prices will be better there, but the trading time will take longer, as opposed to this little underground village of goblins who buy low and sell high, but are located far closer so you could have more runs. this also makes the player make a choice, which is always a good thing.
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#8
I love those ideas BP! +2.

Those ideas would fit in well with my caravans suggestion, and also, if we had both a local economy (determines how many caravans arrive in the area, how many goods they have to offer and of what quality, as well as how many goods they can buy. The more wealthy the caravan, the more rare+exotic items it will have and the more it can pay for your rare+exotic items. The larger the caravan is, the more variety/quantity it can have, and the more items it can buy.

That should put a balancing factor into the trade as merchants with huge caravans and many rare items for sale won't come to a poor region with little to offer them, and all caravans have a limit in capacity and money so can only buy what they can afford and carry, and can only bring so many items for trade.

An advanced feature could be that each stationary shop/marketplace and each moving caravan could be assigned a unique identifier and name (similar to how our creatures are assigned names) and each caravan starts out at a semi-randomly generated size, wealth level and specialty. The size would influence item capacity, wealth item quality, and specialty, what items the merchant is most interested in and what items they are most likely to have on hand.

The presence of stationary shops/marketplaces, overall wealth (total of happiness ratings, number of items, and quality of items), danger level and population would determine how many caravans are generated and the average size+wealth of them. If this value increases enough for more caravans to be active in the area, then new caravans can be randomly generated. If it decreases to the point where fewer caravans would be active, then caravans could be set to an "inactive" state meaning they won't show up here until the area improves with larger/richer caravans being the most likely to go inactive (simulating that they drop this region from their route). If things improve later, inactive caravans would be restored to their active state again before new caravans would be randomly generated. If a caravan gets destroyed, it's permanently removed and a stat on destroyed caravans is kept, and that caravan is not replaced (or not until after a long delay). If the number of caravans destroyed or robbed goes above a certain amount per unit of time or per total number active, the place starts becoming viewed as too dangerous and fewer caravans will visit.
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#9
Loving all the ideas so far, but Rasmus is right, we should try to focus on more doable task. Let's try to work with what we already have, that way it will be easier/faster to implement it. I've compiled a list with ideas from everyone in order of "doability":

  1. Merchants could be already existing creatures.
    Like an impanzee, or a cyclotaur. This could vary from merchant to merchant.
  2. They could bring protection with them.
    Like orcs, or knights, or cyclotaurs, so they aren't easily robbed from the beginning.
  3. We'll need a Market room to trade with them.
    First, make the market room and lay some tables in there. Fill them with the product you want to trade. Basically, it would be a storage room where you store what you have to offer. No offer, no merchant.
  4. They need to come from somewhere.
    And that somewhere could be a surface stair already conquered. You want to trade? You should earn the right by killing some knights first.
  5. You could either trade peacefully, or rob him.
    Perhaps once he arrives to our market room, we can plant a battle flag on said room and that would make our forces attack his. Future merchants will bring more and more protection with them.
  6. There should be a fake global supply/demand.
    You shouldn't be able to live of selling fish the whole game. The more fish you sell, the less they pay you.
  7. They should offer something not obtainable in the dungeon.
    Like green shards, for example, or a new item that could be used to upgrade our existing buildings.
  8. His protection could be bribeable.
    There's no need to shed blood if you can buy his greedy orc guards off, right?

Did I leave anything out?
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#10
Yeah, on the surface could be caravans, basically they could be handled as being like a creature and mobile shop. Some of them could come down into the underworld through a portal if they see enough profit in it (like you've been trading peacefully with other merchants/caravans in the past.

The more you trade peacefully, the more frequently caravans will visit, the larger they will tend to be, and the more they will be able to trade, and the better quality items they'll have and can afford to buy from you.

Items could, down the road, have a global consumption rate and a global supply rate, if supply outweighs consumption, a surplus will build up over time and the price will tend to drop over time as supply increases. These will be the items normally available for buying. If demand exceeds supply, then the quantity available will drop over time and the prices will raise. These would be the items the merchants would pay the most for in trade. This would also mean that the more of something you sell, the lower the price will get, and the more you buy, the higher the price will get, but over time, these will recover. This would create 2 limits on trade, availability, and price.

I like you're idea of having the merchants be of an existing race (Orc, Imp, Cyclotaur, Impanzee, Human, Fishman).
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#11
i dont think a permanent trading with fixed values would work well in the final game
but i think its a good way to test it and get rid of the bugs before introducing more complexity

for the traders and caravans before starting to simulate a global economy i would sugest to start with something alot more simple like randomly assingned values in a certain range
like this for example
woodvalue = rand() % 10 + 25;
you could either have seperate values for buying and selling or calulate one on the base of the other
those values would be generated each time a trader or caravan arrives
or maybe if you have permanante trader every 5 to 15 minutes
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#12
As for trading, I am thinking of Dwarf Fortress (DF) where you have a 5x5 Trading Depot.

You mark your items to be sent to the depot.
Each item has some estimated value (hidden) based on the Merchant, but trading goes like this:

Merchant:
[x] Armor asking value 100
[ ] Weapon asking value 200
Total value: 100

Me:
[x] Beer [+/-] trading 15 of 30, estimate value: 150
[ ] Iron [+/-] trading 0 of 100, estimate value: 0

Total value: 150

[T] Trade
Pressing Trade is not automatic accepted, unless the Merchant profit is within the [Merchant's acceptable limit] and affected by [My trading skills] + [Trading History Profit].

Merchant's in DF
Elf - despises wood productions sold to them
Human - I think likes weapons and armors
Dwarf - I think likes stone and metal works
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#13
I got stuck working on remaking the trading system, I will make a post later tonight on what I got so far Smile
After I got this working I will focus on the bugs and then release the next version!
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#14
And here we go, 2014.06.25 - Tradingsystem v2.0
Discussion about trading system 2.0 and further starts. Big Grin
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#15
in order to incorporate future items you could have them change their offer every 10 to 60 minutes either random or rotate through a number of possible trades or maybe just a have one or two posts with changing offers
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