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We have gotten a lot of suggestions on creatures, therefore I was thinking about having a discussion on how we want the creature styles to be like. My idea is that the player should be able to see on the creature where he comes from, even creatures that he have never seen before. So to do this I suggest the following:

- Creatures that are born from the Dark Mother should be pure creatures, not mixed, but they can still be fantasy creatures. Like imps, orcs, dark angels, demons and so on..

- Neutral creatures found in the dungeon should be mixed, like the fishman, cyclotaur and the impanzee. They can be a mix out of from fantasy creatures and animals.

- Humans should be pure humans, they can of course be wizards, dwarfs, necromancers and so on, but they should be identified as human-type creatures.

- Surface creatures are still up for debate, I'm not sure how we want these. If we want them as normal animals, or mixed creatures. The important thing here is that the player should be able to see that they come from the surface world.

So what do you guys and gals think? Is this a good rule for the creatures?
Sorry for setting boundaries, but it is important that the creature styles don't get mixed up to much.
Ill throw a "crazy" suggestion here, one that is more in the form of stream of thought that got evoked by your post:

What if, just like wood, stone, iron and gold are the building blocks of most of items, creatures would be the "building" blocks of most creatures?

So, instead of throwing wood+wood+stone+gold to create a certain creature, we would use Imp + Imp + Iron = orc (for example)? to extend this, Imp + Chimp = Impanzee (Chimps could be found on the surface) and Orc + Chimp = some sort of orcish/trollish gorilla. Imp + some sort of lesser dungeon neutral animal that can be herd = the cannon fodder creature.
Imp + Bat = little demons that can only haul, Orc + Bat = gargoyle style creature. Imp + Fish + Human = fishman, Orc + Fish + Human = a trollish shark like creature.

this way, when you find new creatures/enemies, they are a loot in themselves, a reason for you to capture them and not just fear them or hope for their loot. mixed enemies you see in the dungeon will have a "reasoning" behind them, and, a way to create them (Acting as living receipts when captured). each mixed creature could inherit a weaker form of his ancestors abilities, thus still making the 'parents" valuable for their unique abilities, but also encourage mixing and matching to create other creatures.

this "simplifies" the styles of the 3 layers (surface (humans goes here), dungeon, mother born) into making the surface creatures ordinary creatures, the dungeon creatures into classic dungeon creatures (i count the cyclotaur as a classic dungeon creature, even if it got one eye) and a scattering of Mixed creatures to serve as loot guardians and future receipts, and the dark mother is free for all, having 3-4 classic building blocks (Imp, Orc, Goblin, etc..) but which is enabled to throwing/creating mixed creatures.
I like this idea pet. It sort of reminds me of all those monster breeding type games that came out in the late 90's to early 2000's.

With this idea we'd get Dungeon Keeper + Settlers + Monster Rancher = Dwelvers Wink

+ 1 for burningpet!
Hmm this is a interesting question.

I love burning pets idea but if I'm not mistaken that is about creating/unlocking new creature types while the original question is more about what creature type is located in a specific area?

The startup is actually pretty good! You have:

The Dark Mother
I agree with Rasmus on this. Pure evil/fantasy is being spawned from here.
The Underworld
Also agree with this. Neutral creatures which are a mix of fantasy and animals.
The Portals
And also agree with this. Only humanoids, though this should be related to the surface (sometimes).
The 'mini'-dungeons (like the maze).
At the moment I find the cyclotaur a bit different than the other dungeoneers. He is more bad-ass and is in a league of it's own.
You also notice this with your army being diminished by these friendly creaturesTongue I would keep this bad-ass attitude in (possibly future other) mini-dungeons inhabitants.
The Surface
Like said before, a occasional spawn of a humanoid to relate it to the portals. Maybe even seeing the knights walking to their portal.
Besides that, if the surface continues having the swamplike atmosphere I'd make it an undead zone. With undead creatures like, ghosts, vampires (also humanoidTongue), zombies, skeletons (imp skeleton haha), ghouls and stuff like that.
EDIT: And of course animals will fit in fine here! There is also the possibility to mix animals with undead.

Depending on what Rasmus has planned for the future this might obviously change!
Maybe if you can dig down further in the future, the atmosphere of evil might increase (with creatures).

Anyway, I love the idea!
Rasmus, great topic! I agree with the 3 groups you've defined.

Dark Mother - produces pure creatures that are not good-aligned.
Neutral Underground - creatures are unusual hybrids.
Portal Creatures - should be humanoid.
Surface Creatures - ??

If you're going to separate the "surface creatures" from the Humans, I think you should follow a similar formula as the underground creatures. I think it would make sense to make the Surface Creatures a bunch of hybrids of the traditionally "good-aligned" fantasy creatures. Like a Gryphasus - a flying Gryphon/horse mix.

And how about taking the Neutral Underground a step further and make them hybrids of traditionally hostile creatures? Move the Fishman to the surface only and replace him underground with a Croclodyte. A Croclodyte could be a troglodyte with a massive crocodile head and mouth.
burningpet, that is an interesting change you propose. That reminds me a bit of that Impossible Creatures RTS game. What about converting creatures to a resource at the Dark Mother? Captured creatures could be converted to Souls. The Souls could then be spent along with standard resources to recruit some of the higher-tier creatures at the Dark Mother.

Enemy creatures as a resource would also help to push the player to tangle with hero portals. As it is now, it is too easy to simply wall off a hero portal and ignore it. If there are a finite number of creatures on the map outside the portals, then the player would eventually run out and have to turn to the hero portals as a source of creatures/souls.
(09-01-2014, 05:52 PM)DwarvesAtWork Wrote: [ -> ]I think it would make sense to make the Surface Creatures a bunch of hybrids of the traditionally "good-aligned" fantasy creatures. Like a Gryphasus - a flying Gryphon/horse mix.

I was thinking the same thing. Surface creatures could be pure creatures like a deer or rabbit, but could also be hybrids like the Gryphon. I don't think they necessarily need to be representative of goodly creatures just because they are on the surface, but they should definitely be believable as above-ground creatures.
Quote:Like a Gryphasus - a flying Gryphon/horse mix.
There is already such a creature in standard fantasy mythology, the hippogryph
[Image: Hippogryph.jpg]

I agree, the surface should have a mix of original combos, pure animals/humanoid types and traditional mythology/fantasy types, an be a mix of good and evil. EG bandits are human type but evil, whereas the knight is human type and good. Same for the animal/creature types of the surface. The gryphon can be a good/neutral type, whereas we could have say a dragon or other mythological creature as a neutral/evil type. Pure animals would always be neutral. A bear or pack of wolves, while predators and feral, and thus dangerous, are still animals and prefer to mind their own business and hunt prey they can easily kill for food. Threaten their lairs, dens or young or back them into a corner and they will fight but would prefer to avoid confrontations with prey that can fight back effectively.

Of course, your ladies of pain could be deployed to capture wild animals and train them to be evil without the risk of a "make a break for it" type response that an intelligent and sentient prisoner might do. If left alone animal servants would be able to "go feral" basically revert to their original wild animal behaviors, IE wolves will form packs, breed and hunt wherever they happen to be when they go feral, whereas a bear would wander off on its own.
But that horse eagle mix is more unique than the griffin, and it do looks cooler if I may say so Tongue

One thing that burningpet pointed out to me yesterday that I really liked is that all the creatures should have unique skills as well, I have been thinking a lot about having upgrades of the creatures in a linear order, which would make the player always strive after getting these upgrades because they are better in all ways than the non upgraded creatures. But one thing that would make the game more balanced and fun is if every creature have their own specific abilities that would make them useful even against upgraded enemies. For example, if one Dark Angel cost as much to produce as 10 orcs, then the 10 orcs together should be as strong as the dark angel. But to make this work the player must play use the dungeon environment to the orcs advantage so that their skills comes to the best use. Now I'm talking a little bit ahead of myself, because this is something we will start focusing on when it is time to balance the game. But these skills should also affect the creatures appearance. If we have a creature that is a strong melee and have a suicidal agenda to kill of as many enemies as possible when he reaches low life then he should look a little crazy Tongue
(11-01-2014, 02:00 PM)Rasmus Wrote: [ -> ]If we have a creature that is a strong melee and have a suicidal agenda to kill of as many enemies as possible when he reaches low life then he should look a little crazy Tongue

I like this idea, and it kinda goes along with what SU and I were talking about with the surface environment changing based on your influence/claim of the land as a type of environmental status bar on your progress. (This thread starting at the bottom of the page)

In this case, I think it would still be nice in the future to maybe add a floating HP bar, or add the ability to check a box in the menu to allow displaying floating HP bars. Having this kind of visual queue could make it so that you may not necessarily need to look at something like that to tell that this guy is about to die. Plus it gives the game flavor.
I agree ... both with mellow and rasmus.

Yes, there should be an option to show important data as bars like health, hunger, etc. That way you don't accidentally send your orcs into a battle when most of them are on death's door from a earlier battle. you could turn on health bars, quickly see that most are wounded and choose to bide your time, waiting for a more opportune moment to strike, when you're orcs and other creatures are healthy.

Also, yes the Hippogryph definitely looks cool. I believe though, that it's technically a mix of horse and hawk. Regardless it's still a horse crossed with a large bird of prey...

I also agree that creatures should have unique skills. IMO they should also all have different strengths and weaknesses, so that the game's more then just a "level race" to see who can "level up" their creatures the fastest. The upgraded creatures should be, overall more powerful then the earlier versions, but should not be invincible against the pre-upgraded versions. If, say, an orc upgraded to an ogre, the ogre should be generally more powerful then an orc, but could have some weakness or the orc some particular skill that in certain situations could actually give the orc(s) the advantage, such as a strength in numbers ability where the orcs work better as a team then the ogres do. So if an ogre costs as much as 10 orcs to create, the 10 orcs with such an ability could be worth more then the sum of their parts as the saying goes, in other words, would fight more effectively then the 1 ogre, but that the ogre could be strong at something else, such as in taking down large creatures, so you do still need them, and perhaps 1 ogre also takes up fewer resources like food and beer then 10 orcs would, so you have trade-offs and special skills and many other factors to consider then just building the biggest badass monster available.
(12-01-2014, 07:31 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: [ -> ]I agree ... both with mellow and rasmus.

Yes, there should be an option to show important data as bars like health, hunger, etc. That way you don't accidentally send your orcs into a battle when most of them are on death's door from a earlier battle. you could turn on health bars, quickly see that most are wounded and choose to bide your time, waiting for a more opportune moment to strike, when you're orcs and other creatures are healthy.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but all creatures has health-bars if the hand is over them, and if they are wounded it is visible all the time.

(12-01-2014, 07:31 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: [ -> ]Also, yes the Hippogryph definitely looks cool. I believe though, that it's technically a mix of horse and hawk. Regardless it's still a horse crossed with a large bird of prey...

I also agree that creatures should have unique skills. IMO they should also all have different strengths and weaknesses, so that the game's more then just a "level race" to see who can "level up" their creatures the fastest. The upgraded creatures should be, overall more powerful then the earlier versions, but should not be invincible against the pre-upgraded versions. If, say, an orc upgraded to an ogre, the ogre should be generally more powerful then an orc, but could have some weakness or the orc some particular skill that in certain situations could actually give the orc(s) the advantage, such as a strength in numbers ability where the orcs work better as a team then the ogres do. So if an ogre costs as much as 10 orcs to create, the 10 orcs with such an ability could be worth more then the sum of their parts as the saying goes, in other words, would fight more effectively then the 1 ogre, but that the ogre could be strong at something else, such as in taking down large creatures, so you do still need them, and perhaps 1 ogre also takes up fewer resources like food and beer then 10 orcs would, so you have trade-offs and special skills and many other factors to consider then just building the biggest badass monster available.

I agree with you, it will be a lot of balancing when we are near the end of the alpha state. I think there will be one more update before we start polishing the balance of the game-play.
Even though you can see the health status of creatures when you scroll the mouse over them, it would still be nice to have an option to check a box or something to have those always displayed whether or not the cursor is over the creature.
Exactly! Wink
Agreed!
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