Brainstorm Creature Mechanic - Leaders, bosses, packs, elites, etc. in Dwelvers?
I moved discussion about bosses and any kind of leaders from polo5021's thread named The Objectives of Dwelvers and wishing to continue it here, encouraging you to write your opinion about leaders, elites, etc. in Dwelvers. So here's is how it started:

(25-05-2015, 11:16 AM)polo5021 Wrote: Hey,

Having an overall objective would allow for better time management and communication with players. Below is a list of example objectives that you could follow.

For example, do you want Dwelvers to:
-The ability to raid and destroy human outposts on the surface world. Upon destroying enough you get into a "boss" battle to contest the region, defeating the "boss" will result in your capture of the region, (like the orcs in mordor from LOTR).
(25-05-2015, 06:54 PM)Rasmus Wrote: Raiding and destroying humans on the surface world will be included in the upcoming version. Boss battles has not yet been implemented but is definitely something I can see being implemented in the future!
(26-05-2015, 08:08 PM)Sebt Wrote: Please no boss battles other then some sort of kings or like lord of realms (so guys who has a little more spells, a little better stats, but doesn't have milion HP, etc, in DK 2 Lords of Realms were really well done and more "real") or if you must have them let them look like others, not like something being one of a kind you couldn't imagine it's origin... Tongue
(27-05-2015, 06:57 PM)polo5021 Wrote: I'm imagining boss battles to be something more like a mini boss with loads of defenders, and an economy to boot that will attack you.
(30-05-2015, 01:09 AM)Rasmus Wrote: I am not thinking bosses, rather pack leaders. A creature that is a little bit stronger and bigger than the rest and gives nearby creatures a moral boost.


I would like to start a talk on how do anyone of us imagine/see the idea of having leaders, elites, etc. in Dwelvers?

Will we leave invisible division on stronger and weaker, bigger and more powerful (that could be considered as Elite creature) and smaller but i.e. smarter or something like Mother Nature created them or you want to have clear division on leaders, elites, etc. seeing one as different from others of the same specie or totally one of a kind (bigger, in different shape or just with different body appearance, skills, then its company of its specie, etc.)? Maybe you don't want to have in Dwelvers any kind of leaders at all?!


Because I put my answer in the thread mentioned at the beginning of this post, but decided to make a separate thread for this discussion as won't to double-post my thoughts here, I'll put that answer here:

I saw in different games leaders that were looking the same, but got different color and were just bigger or something, but I think it is so lazy - to make some creatures just bigger or more skilled and name them as bosses Tongue We'll have in Dwelvers some sort of leaders of packs, but how exactly they could look like? Here's how I see this:

1. One of a kind, but not specially different - Let's imagine that there's a pack of i.e. wild Orcs - and one of these Orcs seems to be their leader - he looks almost exactly like anyone ese in this group of Orcs however it wields more powerful or just different and unique equipment, have some additional group skills/buffs and other unique skill or two, as also his face and body appearance look a little different then other Orcs in the pack - have some tattoos, specific only to him markings, other body or wear decorations, etc. - but he's not bigger, or something - like in our real world generals or kings aren't bigger or something like that, are they? Smile

Question is if such leaders could be able to be caught - to not destroy basic and one of the most beautiful idea of being able to imprison every creature and their equipment we need to make these able to be caught by players. Such leader of a pack couldn't have so much more skills, etc... of course until we think about something that such leader of a pack when being converted to our side lost some of his skills or something like that. Wink

2. Invisible division by ranks - Another my think is some sort of division - for example like in Might & Magic Heroes games on "Basic", "Elite" and "Champion" creatures (for example in Orcish specie: Orcs could be Basic ones, Ogres are Elites, Cyclops are Champions, etc. ) - that would make some creatures to be stronger then Basic units, but they'll have also more requirements, different weaknesses, like some Basic units could have some sort of skill that will boost their atack when fighting with Champion creatures or some Elites could be much less resistant to some magic school spells then any Basic units. BUT Exclamation

I don't want to say we'll have in Dwelvers clear division, like in Diablo games where are creatures which color of their names tells you the are Elite or Champion ones - just want to make what I'm saying here easier to compare with - so we'll not have division on Basic, Elite or Champion units, but some creatures will be naturally more durable, have more HPs and some more weaknesse, could appear in less quantity, have more needs, etc. and their rarity and mix of powers could be taken as leader of packs.

So leaders of packs could be just those "Champions" or "Elites" that have "Basic" units around them to fight. These are like tiered creatures, but in reality some animals are rarer then others and have different durability and sizes right? Even if they come from the same ancestor.

I think this sort of "invisible" division on Basic/Elite/Champion creatures existed in Dungeon Keeper (Basic: Fly, Elite: Dark Mistress, Champion: Reaper or Avatar), but they totally overpowered Basic units and haven't any weaknesses to them except being more expensive to keep.

Because in Dwelvers every creature has to be catchable including being able to take its equipment - Players could have them and when have one or more they would need to think - to have more Basic units or to have less "Elites" and even lesser "Champions". I think someone gave us some sort of similar idea here: I wasn't sure about this for a first time, but IMO such invisible division made by Mother Nature is a reasonable explanation of such creatures existence.

Anyway, what are your thoughts about leaders and elites in Dwelvers guys? Smile
Spec: Win 10, ATI 7800 HD, res: 1280x1024x75. I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy
like the pack leaders idea for orcs, goblins, and imps but speciel creatures need special stuuffff Smile

also why is there no magic casters in game yet
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The main reason there are no magic casters I assume, is because the combat mechanics have only so far been developed for melee and not ranged. I would think this would be much harder to do since the ranged attacks could ignore some of the boundaries layers and liquids create. It will get there eventually.

Getting back to elites/bosses/pack leaders, I wouldn't mind seeing a mix of these concepts. I could see having to defeat a regional boss after raiding enough of their villages to have them come out to handle business themselves, or as a roadblock between regions to be conquered before being able to move on.

Even being able to make your own pack leader through some sort of special training, summoning, or sacrifice would be cool especially if you were allowed to keep them after the level is finished for the remainder of the game like in Warcraft III. They would level up over time and maybe we would be able to have control over these units only, perhaps even have inventory for special/unique items. They wouldn't have to be overly powerful as compared to their counterparts so that you could just walk around with pack leaders and not be challenged. You could also have a limit to the number you can keep so even if every character had a pack leader, you couldn't make every single one and use them which would allow for different combinations and strategies. Even if you were able to make all of them, it could be managed almost like mercenaries. As you create more, you could summon or dismiss your pack leaders to adapt your strategy to different circumstances, and this would most certainly be at a significant cost. It shouldn't be easy to do this, and if you did switch these out a lot, you would risk having a whole bunch of watered down pack leaders instead of a core group of well trained/equipped ones. This could have serious consequences for the end game outcome if not managed properly.

To distinguish a boss/pack leader, I like the idea of them having an aura either around them or underfoot and their underlings should also have some display showing their being affected by it. I think they should also have visibly better equipment, maybe their weaponry has a glow effect, or they could have an elemental effect like being on fire or dripping blood. In some cases it may make sense for them to also be larger in size, but it definitely shouldn't be applied across the board.

I don't think these should be captured in the same way all other enemies are. I would prefer to see either one of two things, either they convert but it takes a long while and through this process they are reduced to a normal state like their counterparts, or if they are recruited they become like your other pack leaders and are only available if you hadn't reached your limit, or you dismiss another pack leader and summon the recruit. If recruited as a pack leader, they should also be more offensive to your normal minions and would be better paired with other enemy converts because they wouldn't be able to keep morale up or command any real respect.

As far as elites, it would be fun to have some more powerful versions of your enemies guarding special installations or treasure, but after capturing them the conversion process would ultimately revert them to a normal status. I wouldn't want to be able to control a squad of elites, that would have no challenge.
everything mello said i love and i know magic casters would be difficult but for now couldnt they just have normal ranged attack that looks like a fire ball

i like the idea of being limited but we need a number there are currently impanzees ,orcs, cyclotaurs, rogues, piggehs, knights , imps, fishmen, and flappys right so we can cross off imps, and flappys cuz u really need a 50 imp task force following jimbo the great or a bunch of flappys that are pointless in battle. so that leaves 7 right. 7 divided by 2 is 3.5 rounded is 4 there for 4 is the max of packleaders you should be able to have as like mello said they wouldnt be OP so you cant just get all four and go rule the land with your four man raiding party of the strongest possible leaders. a good combo for the 4 would be cyclotaur, impanzee, rogue and knight

suggestions for cool leader names:
Knight: King or prince maybe shirley
Cyclotaur: Cylone or Cylotaurus the us making it so much better
Orc: orc big boy or an orcish slayer
Impanzee: Impanzee mother
Rouges: Grand Thief (insert name) or Master rogue (insert name)
Piggehs:Butcher or master chef(tv show)
FishmenConfusedomthing to do with fishing

ps. if having a massive imp army following jimbo the great as he goes around picking up items were they all do to is indeed a faster way of item collection then i am all for giving up a single leader in order for an economy boost
Yes jimbo lead me to victory
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I've had a few thoughts on these I'd like to bring up. Now, before I begin, I should note these are a little rough around the edges. Mostly because, I can think of lots of ways this could be done, but it really depends on what the dev's vision is, and what other features are planned and alike. But, I think I got two that should be put forth for some pondering. Both in regard to this particular subject, as well as other uses they might have in the future. Also, I might throw in a few absurd concepts in I've been tossing around that might be relevant. My ideas seem to be better received when I don't structure them to to much, and just sort of spit ball them out for other people to run with.

So, without further ado. Here we go.

Idea 1: Potential.
This is an idea I've had on the back burner a while, at least since Sebt explained how the creature learning system might work to me.. Hm, I think during the ELITE monster post I did. The basics of what I remembered him explaining (or linked to a post explaining) was that creatures in Dwelvers were to actual learn and evolve based on the equipment they carried, something to the effect of, if you give a goblin glasses, the goblin would then slowly get smarter, perhaps getting better at research; while if you gave that same goblin a .. I dunno, a hard hat.. it would slowly learn and get better at say.. construction. I'm paraphrasing and simplifying. But That's about the impression of the idea as I inturpreted it..

Now, with that concept in mind, I can move on to explaining this idea of creature potential I had. Something that is similar what is being put forth now. What if instead of 'alpha' creatures, creatures of the same species that are fitter and hardery than thier counterparts. If creatures were given a hidden stat of potential in a few of the fields they might be bettered in. This would achieve the same goal as presented, in a way, but allow the player a personal investment in the creatures growth.

Fr example. Say we have two orcs. Bob the Orc, and Joe the Orc. At first, both are fairly typical orcs, both with the same stats. But later, through training, the hand might somehow become privy to the fact that Bob is never going to be anything more than a common orc, but Joe has the 'potential' to be better in some field. In the case of the orc, a better fighter.. more strength.. making him a better fighter than Bob could ever hope to be.

Now, this is just a simple run down, for a rough Idea. But I could see this working into this concept somehow. Perhaps Joe, the stronger orc, might also have a higher potential Charisma giving him the potential, with the proper training, to become a packleader. This could apply to more aspects of the character other than a cut and dry -suck- and -awesome-. Perhaps Bob doesn't have the potential to ever be as strong, or charsimatic as Joe. But has a higher potenital in intelligence, or alike. Giving him the ability to become potential to be a much, much greater smith.

Now I can certainly see this as having problems, and needing a bit more pondering. But, It's an idea I had, and I think it's good enough to stick up on the block to see if it spurs anything in anybody.

Idea 2: Evolution.
This Idea is also an aim to give players a more active role in the development of their pack leader, or Elite. Taking a page from Pokemon, and other pet games, such as Dragonseeds. It involves putting some sort of time sink, or the use of some item or resource to 'evolve' one creature into a higher form. For example. Evolving an Orc into an Ogre. This would be something like a 'class system' as well. But with more wiggle room to be a bit more nutty with the transition of Creature A into Creature B. Their might even be some trade of for the evolution, making it so that the creature transformed is inferior to the base creature in some ways.

Let's say this, using the example of Bob and Joe from the idea pitch above. What if Evolving an Orc into an ogre would increase strength, presence, and charisma. But would increase cost, upkeep needs, as well as making the transformed creature dumber, less agile? Well, now, it's pretty clear that you don't want Bob, your smithy orc, to become an Ogre. It's an unwise move to take a unit that has a high potential of smithing and making him such a creature. Because, well, he'd be a better smith, right?

This brings me to my next point. The evolution of the 'pack leader' does not necessarily need to increase the primary abilities of the previous iteration of the creature. Orcs don't have to evolve into ogres, which just seem to be bigger, badder orcs.

A creature idea I had that comes to mind, is another one I've had on the backburner called the 'Harlequin'. An evolved Rogue who looses combat effectiveness in exchange for being able to entertain other creatures. This is less a 'step up' as it is an 'exchange'. But something still vital and more useful than a rogue but only in a <i>situational</i> sense. And I think that might be worth considering. Packleaders don't necessarily need to be bigger and badder, that can simply be better leaders, perhaps even allowing the player to take direct control of minions within a certain range of it.

I think this sort of thinking sort of jives with the concepts of what ya'll are going for. At least as I understand it. And, if balanced and executed correctly, could solve the problem of 'why not just make all orcs ogres' without putting a hard limit on the player.

Other Thoughts
So, time for some slightly off tangent, but related concepts that might work with these.

• As noted above, I think that somehow connecting Packleaders to some 'hands on' control of squads could be an effective system. I think something simple, like giving each creature a charsima, or even more direct 'leadership' stat, and having the number that could translate into a AOE around the leaders position in which the player could directly control the minions within it's squad would be a neat way to include direct control while still give the impression the monsters are their own entities, and not just mindless units. You're ordering the leader to give orders to it's troops. The better a leader they are, the more orders could be available, and the better the minions under it's command would listen. Not to mention an increase in range around the unit viable commands could be given.

• I think it would be neat to have a 'school' room that could help determine potential of creatures if the above system is implimented. Or maybe a function of the training room.

• I like the idea of a 'Hatchery' where creatures would cacoon themselves for a time before evolving into the next stage of their evolution.

• Stats could both raise, and lower with evolution.

• Also, completely random. But since on the subject of creature training. I had an idea a while back for for a 'Reference system', something like a wall hanging that would display Scematics of an item the creature is currently constructing. At first, if a Bob the Orc is making a gun (blunderbus), it would need a schematic drawn at a 'drafting board' station, which could be taken from storage (Library) and put up on a reference board near the place of it's work. Occasionally, Bob would have to stop and have to move over to the board to observe it, before going back to work. The more intelligent the creature(Bob), the less it has to check reference material.

But not only that, every time Bob makes a gun, he gains a percentage of knowledge in how to construct the item in question. So, after making one Gun, he knows 20% of how the gun is made. This also is a factor of it's intelligence. As a dumber creature then Bob might only gain 10%, and a smarter creature might gain 30%. The end result is after making a number of them, enough to reach 100%, he no longer needs any referance at all to make that particular item.

This would give Bob a lot of value.. As he would be much more experienced, and much quicker at making that object, no longer needing to stop his work when he is making an item he is familiar with. I really think this could be neat, as it accomplishes a number of things. It gives units value though training, and use. Making the unit more important, without the age old 'level up' system you seem to wish to divert from. Sure, it is just a variation of a level up system. But it makes a lot more sense, and I think has a more interesting execution. Also, the various steps involved now would do great in making the dungeon feel more production driven. Now, not only are you simply telling a creature to smith something. But you need - An Academic type to draw up the schematic > A worker to store the Schematic and a place to store it > a Creature to bring the Schematic to the reference board, which should be built next to the station the item is going to be constructed at, to minimize the back and forth of puzzled workers. Activities like this are very attuned to Dwelvers Feel of being an active environment..

...How the hell did I get so off topic.. again?

Also, tying back to the evolution thing... Now you -really- don't want Bob to become an ogre. He can smith guns! Or Swords, or what every type of equipment. And if Ogres can't smith.. well, then making him into one would be something of a blow. At the very least, it would not be a simple straight forward 'all win' situation. I could keep going, but I think I've typed enough for now.

Be well in your pondering, my fellow Dark Delvers of the Darker Places.
[Image: OKBJF31.png] Dav-Goblin. High King and Master of Pitching Absurd, Convoluted Concepts far to Early in the Development Cycle.
i am interested in this evolution thing got me thinking what if you had to work your way up from an imp (in a seperate gamemode) you then evolved into a goblin and so on but as you evolve you gain "control" were you can get creatures under your command. Direct control of the creature until you become a hand.
Start of as an imp first objective is to build and follow the Progressive building that was added so you need to build and upgrade as you evolve and gain creatures trust and control.
to build of of the ogre idea could we capture surface world creatures (pig,Cow) and evolve them into cyclotaurs and piggehs and impanzees (we need a sheep realated creature now LOL Farming sim)
enyweys i like the pack leader evolution combo if some how possible
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