Brainstorm Creature Mechanic - Creature production - Ideas needed!
#76
I feel like this is an never ending story.. But I got a new idea that might just work..

The development up until now works like this:
- The player starts with some basic creature types.
- The player can learn to make the creature types he feed to the dark mother.

But the though question is if we should use specific items from the production chain to create specific creatures. Or if we should have some sort of an evil meter that replenish and works as a currency when creating creatures.

I just came up with a third solution.. What if any item could be feed to the dark mother, and that different items has a different value on them like this:
Gold = 100
Rock = 50
Wheat = 10
Water = 1

And then we have the creature costs:
Imp = 100
Orc = 300
Cyclotaur = 1000
(These creature cost will grow exponentially depending on how many of the same creature type the player has)

So to create an imp we will have to feed the dark mother with 2 rocks or 1 gold or 10 wheat or 100 water.
The player will be able to feed the dark mother even if there is no creatures on queue, this is so that he can create a buffer for later uses.

This solution would also fix the overfilled storage rooms that many have had complaints about Smile
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#77
(13-04-2014, 03:36 AM)Rasmus Wrote: ... What if any item could be feed to the dark mother, and that different items has a different value on them like this:
Gold = 100
Rock = 50
Wheat = 10
Water = 1

And then we have the creature costs:
Imp = 100
...

So to create an imp we will have to feed the dark mother with 2 rocks or 1 gold or 10 wheat or 100 water.
The player will be able to feed the dark mother even if there is no creatures on queue, this is so that he can create a buffer for later uses.

This is a great idea to make creating creatures standardized. It may be interesting to see if later certain special or rare creatures could be made by other means than the rest of the dungeon creatures. I especially like the buffer idea. No more waiting for Imps to deliver, and this removes some extra jobs for the CPU to crunch. I would add a limit to the amount the Dark Mother could hold (potentially upgradable attribute) or else she may just burst or regurgitate.
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#78
Hmm, what if we could have different food levels..

Food level 1:
------------
Rocks = 100
Wheat = 10
Water = 1
.....

Food level 2:
------------
Gold = 100
Leather armour = 20
Iron Ingots = 25
.....

Food level 3:
------------
Diamonds = 100
.....

And that certain creatures like the imps and impanzees could be created from food level 1.
Orcs and Cyclotaurs from food level 2.
Cowdragons from food level 3.

Hmm, if we are doing this we really need to come up with better names than "food level". I imagine small icons in the bottom left of the item description window showing the item value if the player wanted to feed the dark mother with it.
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#79
1. IMO adding food levels makes a hierarchy, player knowing that some creature are available to make by having higher leveled items would think as higher level of food he or she reach as better creature he or she get, so previous creatures will be trashed out or just described as worse. Smile

2. We know creature process production, but what we need are previously taken Essences (blueprints to make certain specie of creatures) and specific number Evil Points to make them - however still don't know these points should be used for that purpose and I like the idea of assigning values to items, it could work like a market, maybe we don't want most creatures to be rare, but resources are naturally rare, so this idea has sense to me and the buffer method seems to be interesting. However don't we use now any items to make creatures? I mean whatever you throw certain amount of threw items to DM will give ability for player to make creatures, so it works like now - you could make an Orc from stones only again, unless what you think is that resources threw to Dark Mother are exchanged for Evil Points from which you'll make a creature?
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#80
1. I am not worried about that the player would trash the other creatures, the reason is that the cost for the creatures increases exponentially by how many creatures of that specific type the player has. So there is never a reason for the player not to make the other creatures, especially as they don't interfere with each others currency.

2. I am still on board with the blueprint idea, it is just the evil point system that I feel can be a little boring and bring no challenge to the player. Besides, if all creatures are fighting over the same currency only the best creature will be made. Because there will always be creatures that are better than other, no matter how much I balance the game.

The problem with having gold to make orcs, and stones to make imps is that it feels unnatural to me, there is no sound reason why imps would be created out of stone and orcs out of beer and gold, and it can also be hard to control in the end because we will only have a limited of basic resources and once we have 10+ creature types in the dungeon they will all cost the same items, just with higher and lower quantities.

What I really like about the idea of being able to throw all items at the Dark Mother is that the player don't feel the need to remove or stop productions because they are producing to much, instead of stopping the production the player can redirect it straight to the dark mother and create creatures out of it. Another point is that because the dungeon randomly generated the player may not always have the chance to get the specific resources he needs to create creatures to defend or expand his dungeon, but if he can use other resources (even if it takes a longer amount of time) then this problem will solve itself.

And...
The creature production will not interfere in such a big amount with the equipment production in the dungeon and also not exhaust limited resources.

Hmm, I see a lot of upsides with this.. But I may need a day to think about it, I know that I easily get tunnel vision when a new idea pops into my head Tongue
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#81
(13-04-2014, 03:36 AM)Rasmus Wrote: I feel like this is an never ending story.. But I got a new idea that might just work..

The development up until now works like this:
- The player starts with some basic creature types.
- The player can learn to make the creature types he feed to the dark mother.

But the though question is if we should use specific items from the production chain to create specific creatures. Or if we should have some sort of an evil meter that replenish and works as a currency when creating creatures.

I just came up with a third solution.. What if any item could be feed to the dark mother, and that different items has a different value on them like this:
Gold = 100
Rock = 50
Wheat = 10
Water = 1

And then we have the creature costs:
Imp = 100
Orc = 300
Cyclotaur = 1000
(These creature cost will grow exponentially depending on how many of the same creature type the player has)

So to create an imp we will have to feed the dark mother with 2 rocks or 1 gold or 10 wheat or 100 water.
The player will be able to feed the dark mother even if there is no creatures on queue, this is so that he can create a buffer for later uses.

This solution would also fix the overfilled storage rooms that many have had complaints about Smile

This is the best idea yet for creature creation. I'd love to still have some rare creatures that still need specific item combinations to make them though, just to make them harder to make, so you won't be able to spam the dungeon with something that's supposed to be rare. The common creatures could be made in this way though.

Sebt Wrote:1. IMO adding food levels makes a hierarchy, player knowing that some creature are available to make by having higher leveled items would think as higher level of food he or she reach as better creature he or she get, so previous creatures will be trashed out or just described as worse.
This is s very good point. IMO food levels would create the impressing that food level 2 creatures are better. I still like the idea of groupings, just do not designate them in any way that would create the impression that any one group is better then any other group, each has its advantages and disadvantages.

Some balancing that could be done here is:

-some cheap, weak creatures could have some special advantage in certain situations, others could just be so cheap that you can easily spam the dungeon with hordes of them.
- the more powerful creatures could be very expensive to make, so you can get more combat power out of some of the weaker but cheaper creatures, but the more powerful creatures are cheaper to maintain in the long run as a squad 6 of them could be as effective as a small army of 20 or 30 of the weak creatures, and the squad those 6 strong creatures wouldn't need to eat as much as the horde 30 weak creatures would.
- some very powerful creatures could require a specific combination of resources at least some of which would be very rare so only a few could ever be made
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#82
(13-04-2014, 08:46 AM)Seriously Unserious Wrote: Some balancing that could be done here is:

-some cheap, weak creatures could have some special advantage in certain situations, others could just be so cheap that you can easily spam the dungeon with hordes of them.
- the more powerful creatures could be very expensive to make, so you can get more combat power out of some of the weaker but cheaper creatures, but the more powerful creatures are cheaper to maintain in the long run as a squad 6 of them could be as effective as a small army of 20 or 30 of the weak creatures, and the squad those 6 strong creatures wouldn't need to eat as much as the horde 30 weak creatures would.
- some very powerful creatures could require a specific combination of resources at least some of which would be very rare so only a few could ever be made

Doesn't it make making creatures hierarchic? Each creature need to be usable as a single creature, this is not common RTS game where each unit doesn't matter, just if you have bigger group. We discussed some time ago that if we want some creatures be harder to maintain let's it won't be determined by their production cost or power, but by needs that one have bigger, other lesser or equipment is more expensive or it require more food, etc. So it doesn't matter how much does a creature cost or what resources are needed (if it comes to creatures made from DM only of course), but your capability to maintain your minions. In short thanks to that system we don't need to trouble ourselves about producing creature - it's very simple and it's up to you how you want to conquer the land.
Spec: Win 10, ATI 7800 HD, res: 1280x1024x75. I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy
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#83
What I suggested was mainly targeted to limiting the production of those super-powered creatures so you don't have players, as soon as those are available, just spam the dungeon full of those and just ignore the weaker creatures as utterly inferior. By creating a special requirement for special creatures you:

  1. Make the special creature actually be special by limited numbers and special production requirements
  2. force the player to continue to use the common creatures

Otherwise, if all creatures were created from the same pool of stored creature points or whatever they're called, these special, rare, very powerful creatures would be used as if they were common orcs and goblins, which would upset the balance of the game. By not having anything but orcs and goblins, it becomes a numbers game of who has the most creatures wins the battle. This forces the player to make decisions. Do you use that gold to make a cow-dragon, or do you just feed it to the dark mother to make more orcs, or do you maybe make jewelry to make your creatures happier, or do something else with it entirely?

As for different creatures consuming different amounts of resources like food at different rates per individual, I never said anything about that not happening, I'm sure I suggested that idea in the first place. If I'm wrong about that I apologize to whoever did suggest it. I was speaking in terms of total resource consumption per all members of a race. For example, 30 orcs could consume less food then 6 cyclotaurs, even though 1 cyclotaur would consume more food then 1 orc.
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#84
I understand what you wrote, at the same time there won't be any super-powered creatures, that's why I wrote about hierarchy. Smile
There won't be the best creature or the most powerful creature in the game, that's generic, even you can say it became "normal", but to make something innovative one need to forgot everything that was used in the past and create something totally new, out of standards.

So if it comes to creatures, every will have it's own abilities that give advantage against some other creatures, some will be great workers also, some could fight much better than others wearing specific equipment or in specific conditions, some could have abilities unique only to them (let's call it signature abillities), some could fight better when being drunk or could reflect someone's fireball with double damage, etc. I could mention many things that says - yes, this creature for my actual needs, resources I have, enemy I know would be perfect to realize my plan of conquering this realm, so let's make it.

To sum it up there will be creatures the best in certain conditions, but not as ultimate monsters, so you could replace weaker with them. Stronger, weaker, there won't be such a thing like this and so we don't need to balance creature production cost, but their upkeep. " I was speaking in terms of total resource consumption per all members of a race. For example, 30 orcs could consume less food then 6 cyclotaurs, even though 1 cyclotaur would consume more food then 1 orc." - and that's good thinking, one of the way of balancing creature upkeep if we want have it with us happy and useful. Smile
Spec: Win 10, ATI 7800 HD, res: 1280x1024x75. I support The Venus Project & Resource-Based Economy
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#85
I like the assignment of values to different things fed to the DM. If the value of each is based on the rarity of the item within the generated dungeon as compared to the rest of the content of the dungeon then, no matter what the seed for the level, a player will not have disadvantages associated with the randomness of a seed accept in what he or she can build and how soon instead of what creatures he or she can create. This way, while eventually a player could potentially create every room and structure, the player would have to do it at different rates and at different times depending on the random distribution of resources instead of a specific tech tree.

I do agree that leaving in special items for the creation of special creatures would be important as well and would not be the same across each map seed or even across the same seed... independent for greater variability and yet still relatively balanced.
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#86
Hmm, I think I will give this approach a try with the next version, it is very easy to implement and too remove if people are unsatisfied with it.
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#87
Awesome, I look forward to testing it out and giving you some feedback on how I found the new system.
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#88
I am a little behind with my newsletter/journal, but I will try to get this feature in there with it, it should probably be finished by tomorrow. Just need to find some good names for the "food values", we need three of them, each and one with a name that sounds more valuable than the last. Like bronze, silver, gold. But with Dark Mother sounding food instead Tongue
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#89
how about bad, sinister, evil?
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#90
or Raw Meal, Cooked Meal, and Smorgasbord?
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